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Old 08-12-2009, 04:38 PM
 
54 posts, read 92,599 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Memphis1979 View Post
They could have regular army personel in charge of training, and there for leadership. This is similar to how the minute man militias used to be set up.
??Where did the "regular Army personel in charge of training and there for leadership" come from? This is certainly not "similar to how the minute man militias used to be set up"!

It would have been exceedingly difficult for the Minutemen to have regular army personnel in charge of training or leadership since the colonies in revolt had no regular army.

Of course after the Constitution was ratified in 1787 (well after the War for Independence was won) the Militia had to meet the Constitutional requirements:

Article 1, Section 8 - Powers of Congress

"To provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining the Militia, and for governing such Part of them as may be employed in the Service of the United States, reserving to the States respectively, the Appointment of the Officers, and the Authority of training the Militia according to the discipline prescribed by Congress"

Clear now? P
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Old 08-12-2009, 04:51 PM
 
Location: Sango, TN
24,869 posts, read 24,287,993 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Polybius View Post
??Where did the "regular Army personel in charge of training and there for leadership" come from? This is certainly not "similar to how the minute man militias used to be set up"!

It would have been exceedingly difficult for the Minutemen to have regular army personnel in charge of training or leadership since the colonies in revolt had no regular army.

Of course after the Constitution was ratified in 1787 (well after the War for Independence was won) the Militia had to meet the Constitutional requirements:

Article 1, Section 8 - Powers of Congress

"To provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining the Militia, and for governing such Part of them as may be employed in the Service of the United States, reserving to the States respectively, the Appointment of the Officers, and the Authority of training the Militia according to the discipline prescribed by Congress"

Clear now? P
They didn't have "Regular Army" in charge, however, they usually put the man with the most extensive military experience. Men who fought for the British, but were American patriots, that kind of army men. It was all they had, until a continental army could be formed. They used militias to shore up the standing army after the war had begun as well.

Essentially, it was the national guard, that wasn't controlled by a Federal Government. Some form of that is what I am in favor of.
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Old 08-12-2009, 06:55 PM
 
31,387 posts, read 36,899,935 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jtur88 View Post
The Bill of Rights was amended to the constitution to prevent abuse and misconstruction (the founders' words in the preamble) of the original constitution. In other words, the well-regulated militia was called for so they could kill anybody from inside the beltway who was intent on abusing or misconstruing the constitution. As in "enemies foreign and domestic", like heckuvajob Brownie. The founders had seen no Hitler at work, but they thought of it as a possibility and wrote the second amendment as a safeguard against such things.
That must be why one of the most pressing issues that brought 55 delegates to Philadelphia in the summer of 1787 was Shay's rebellion when that infamous "militia" decided that the tyranny of the then week central government had so deeply offended their concept of personal freedom.

No, like most, you've gotten your history distorted by NRA lenses. None of the founders or those who authored the Anti-Federalist papers viewed the role of militias as one in which the militias were to be used to assertively check the power of the national government but rather simply to forego the necessity of maintaining a standing army.

Writing in the Anti-Federalist Papers, the anonymous author Brutus wrote;

"Had we a standing army when the British invaded our peaceful shores? Was it a standing army that gained the battles of Lexington and Bunker Hill, and took the ill-fated Burgoyne? Is not a well-regulated militia sufficient for every purpose of internal defense? And which of you, my fellow citizens, is afraid of any invasion from foreign powers that our brave militia would not be able immediately to repel?"

Nothing regarding the role of the militias as an active defense against the central government.

Please no Jefferson quotes since he wasn't a delegate to the Constitutional Convention.
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Old 08-12-2009, 06:58 PM
 
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Washington wrote to the Continental Congress in September of 1776
the following observation regarding militias.

"To place any dependence upon Militia, is, assuredly, resting upon a broken staff. Men just dragged from the tender Scenes of domestick life; unaccustomed to the din of Arms; totally unacquainted with every kind of military skill, which being followed by a want of confidence in themselves, when opposed to Troops regularly train'd, disciplined, and appointed, superior in knowledge and superior in Arms, makes them timid, and ready to fly from their own shadows....

The Jealousies of a standing Army, and the Evils to be apprehended from one, are remote; and, in my judgment, situated and circumstanced as we are, not at all to be dreaded; but the consequence of wanting one, according to my Ideas, formed from the present view of things, is certain, and inevitable Ruin; for if I was called upon to declare upon Oath, whether the Militia have been most serviceable or hurtful upon the whole; I should subscribe to the latter."
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Old 08-12-2009, 07:10 PM
 
Location: Sango, TN
24,869 posts, read 24,287,993 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ovcatto View Post
Washington wrote to the Continental Congress in September of 1776
the following observation regarding militias.

"To place any dependence upon Militia, is, assuredly, resting upon a broken staff. Men just dragged from the tender Scenes of domestick life; unaccustomed to the din of Arms; totally unacquainted with every kind of military skill, which being followed by a want of confidence in themselves, when opposed to Troops regularly train'd, disciplined, and appointed, superior in knowledge and superior in Arms, makes them timid, and ready to fly from their own shadows....

The Jealousies of a standing Army, and the Evils to be apprehended from one, are remote; and, in my judgment, situated and circumstanced as we are, not at all to be dreaded; but the consequence of wanting one, according to my Ideas, formed from the present view of things, is certain, and inevitable Ruin; for if I was called upon to declare upon Oath, whether the Militia have been most serviceable or hurtful upon the whole; I should subscribe to the latter."
And Washington wasn't perfect

Military-Industrial Complex Speech, Dwight D. Eisenhower, 1961

Military-Industrial Complex Speech, Dwight D. Eisenhower, 1961
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Old 08-12-2009, 07:14 PM
 
4,070 posts, read 5,575,964 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LuckyGem View Post
After the Ruby Ridge and Waco fiasco of the 1990's,
Neither one of those incidents involves a Militia of any kind. Why you mentioned those two horrific incidents is beyond me.

Those fiasco's were caused by the govt., They might be two good examples on why Militias should exist.

The murders that happened at those two places at the hands of a govt that is suppossed to protect and serve its citizens is disgusting at best.

Peaceful Gatherings, ie "Militias", are allowed under law, who would support laws banning such gatherings? Fascists are one group that would.

Last edited by nevergoingback; 08-12-2009 at 07:30 PM..
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Old 08-12-2009, 08:33 PM
 
Location: Washington
843 posts, read 1,275,538 times
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This is nothing different than we all say in the 60s with the rise of anti-hippy pro-segregation pro-war right wing militias attacking people.

People have a right to think whatever they want. they do not have a right to attack others or threaten others because they disagree or the color of their skin. It seems to be a mantra of the 'tea partiers' and 'town hallers' to attack and threaten anyone they disagree with, even going as far as threatening violence, and vandalizing property with racial commentary.

It seems the Civil War never ended for a few of these whackos (Many are here in City data, at that).

The badnews for the GOP and good news for the dems is that the louder and crazier these whackjobs get, the more and more turned off the overwhelming majority of the american public (left, right and center) get.

No one wants to associate with gun wielding bands of racist nutjobs.
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Old 08-13-2009, 06:18 AM
 
Location: Sango, TN
24,869 posts, read 24,287,993 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tindo80 View Post
This is nothing different than we all say in the 60s with the rise of anti-hippy pro-segregation pro-war right wing militias attacking people.

People have a right to think whatever they want. they do not have a right to attack others or threaten others because they disagree or the color of their skin. It seems to be a mantra of the 'tea partiers' and 'town hallers' to attack and threaten anyone they disagree with, even going as far as threatening violence, and vandalizing property with racial commentary.

It seems the Civil War never ended for a few of these whackos (Many are here in City data, at that).

The badnews for the GOP and good news for the dems is that the louder and crazier these whackjobs get, the more and more turned off the overwhelming majority of the american public (left, right and center) get.

No one wants to associate with gun wielding bands of racist nutjobs.
I agree, thats why I said it should be an organized group of local individuals. Not regular military, that we have to pay a high tax rate for. This group would be composed of a variety of people from the community, left and right leaning people, blacks, whites, hispanics, men, women, everyone. We should be the ones securing our community from possible invasion. The government can keep control of a highly technically advanced military. They need less individuals, as we have unmanned drones that will be the future of military aircraft, and they keep us safe from invasion, along with the navy.

Really, does anyone think someone will invade the United States? Don't give me the illegal immigration bull, I mean an army invading and taking over? Its never going to happen in our lifetimes, there isn't a military or navy capable of doing that in the world.
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Old 08-13-2009, 08:38 AM
 
31,387 posts, read 36,899,935 times
Reputation: 15037
Quote:
Originally Posted by Memphis1979 View Post
And Washington wasn't perfect

Military-Industrial Complex Speech, Dwight D. Eisenhower, 1961

Military-Industrial Complex Speech, Dwight D. Eisenhower, 1961
Apples and grapefruits, in short a strawman argument.

The military-Industrial Complex aside, Washington's argument that militias have been, by in large. abject failures when it came to the defending the nation.
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Old 08-13-2009, 09:10 AM
 
Location: I think my user name clarifies that.
8,292 posts, read 26,565,440 times
Reputation: 3924
Quote:
Originally Posted by LuckyGem View Post
Around the country, evidence accumulates of a return of the militias and the larger antigovernment 'Patriot' movement

SPLCenter.org: SPLC Report: Return of the Militias

After the Ruby Ridge and Waco fiasco of the 1990's, there is a second wave of right wing extremism coalescing in this country, and while I'm not entirely against U.S. citizens uniting for a common cause, it is interesting to know what the motivation is behind the second wave of far right wing unity.

Do you believe it is beneficial to the nation to have community based militias in order to challenge or subvert government tyranny?
First of all, these modern militias really aren't very similar to the "community based militias" of old. Most of the modern ones are comprised of a bunch of paranoid nut-jobs who love guns and think that everybody from Elvis Resurrected to The President is out to get them.

That said, my thought is that - on a practical level - the community militias have long-since been replaced by the national guard & reserves.

So have your gun club, and enjoy the sport. But let's not claim some noble purpose beyond that.
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