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Old 08-23-2009, 01:08 AM
 
Location: Philadelphia
1,038 posts, read 1,672,702 times
Reputation: 942

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thomas R. View Post
Still rightly or wrongly the Confederate battle flag is hurtful to many people. It is also really emblematic of a failure that only lasted a few years of Southern history. The Union flag as it stood from July 4, 1851 to July 3, 1858 might work. It flew in the South longer than the Confederacy lasted and no Southern states were added after 1858. (Unless you count Oklahoma as part of the South.)
Actually, West Virginia was created in 1863 and is a Southern state (though some of my fellow West Virginians disagree with me on this, but that is another argument). The fact is that West Virginia was created without the consent of most of its residents, and is actually a franchise of Virginia, or "Virginia Irredenta" as the old phrase goes. You only have to look at a map of WV counties that voted to secede from the Union, about 2/3s of the state territory. It was actually admitted as a slave state, with a gentleman's agreement of gradual emancipation. But not a single slave was freed when WV became a state, and under the terms of the Willey Amendment, no slave would be freed until 4 years after statehood. Children born of slaves after 7/4/63 would be free, but no provision was made to free any slaves over the age of 21, which meant that without the passage of the 13th Amendment, slavery in WV would have lasted well into the 20th Century.

Last edited by Bobilee; 08-23-2009 at 01:28 AM..

 
Old 08-23-2009, 01:09 AM
 
141 posts, read 184,998 times
Reputation: 72
well hurtful is life, no one cares whats hurtful to whites or hell even americans
 
Old 08-23-2009, 03:34 AM
 
Location: 30-40N 90-100W
13,856 posts, read 13,791,609 times
Reputation: 6456
I can't think of a symbol that represents the right to enslave white people or Americans. Maybe the war-flag of Imperial Japan, but if a veterans group objected to that being flown I think there would be some sympathy.
 
Old 08-23-2009, 03:46 AM
 
Location: Kansas City, Missouri
50 posts, read 62,034 times
Reputation: 38
Ignorance is displayed frequently when education is lacking, and we all know the South isnt known for its quality education lol. Gun totin' hillbillies all over the place down there and thats the reason they are so obsessed with that stupid flag.
 
Old 08-23-2009, 06:52 AM
 
Location: Hernando County, FL
8,489 posts, read 11,209,675 times
Reputation: 5397
Quote:
Originally Posted by kcguy View Post
Ignorance is displayed frequently when education is lacking, and we all know the South isnt known for its quality education lol. Gun totin' hillbillies all over the place down there and thats the reason they are so obsessed with that stupid flag.
Oh, the irony.

Do yourself a favor and don't question anyone elses education.
 
Old 08-23-2009, 11:37 AM
Status: "Semi-retired. On and off line interchangeably" (set 5 days ago)
 
9,821 posts, read 11,174,193 times
Reputation: 5031
Quote:
Originally Posted by kcguy View Post
Ignorance is displayed frequently when education is lacking, and we all know the South isnt known for its quality education lol. Gun totin' hillbillies all over the place down there and thats the reason they are so obsessed with that stupid flag.
Now, this is a very mature, contemplative and insightful, opinion. Yep, just today, I had to duck some random fired buckshot...
 
Old 08-23-2009, 12:10 PM
Status: "Semi-retired. On and off line interchangeably" (set 5 days ago)
 
9,821 posts, read 11,174,193 times
Reputation: 5031
Thank you for a gentlemanly, civil, courteous, and intelligent post, Thomas. Here is my reply:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Thomas R. View Post
Although I agree with much of what you said this part isn't really correct.

By 1860 most of the Western world had abandoned or banned slavery. The main exceptions were Brazil and Russia. Russia would officially emancipate before the US "Emancipation Proclamation." The only places in the Western world to have slavery by the time of the EP were Brazil and a few colonies of European nations.
Your historical information is well taken and absolutely correct! The main point I was trying to make is that a comparrison of the American South of the 1860's as to Nazi Germany in the 1940's, as concerns slavery's existence, in the Western World (as understood) is ludicrous.

By around 1830, the general opinion among Southern politicians and "men of letters" was that chattel slavery was a "necessary evil" bound for eventual extinction. It had pretty much reached its natural geographic limits in western Texas by 1860, anyway. Simple reason being the climate and terrain was just not condusive for the plantation type agriculture.

It was only after many "radical" abolisionists in New England began demanding immediate emancipation without regard to economic consequences, that the same Southerners adopted an understandably more defensive posture. And not the least reason being that many of these same self-righteous individuals came from families whose wealth (and thus, ability to have the luxury of time and money to pontificate) was built upon the slave trade itself!

Quote:
Also I loathe the comparison of any disagreeable thing to Nazism, but that doesn't mean I think the Confederacy was a-okay. The Union wasn't a-okay either. Both were based in highly racist notions, but I would say that on balance the Confederacy was worse. Although Australia was maybe worse than either of them and I'm not sure the Australian flag is very upsetting to anyone.
Well, I think you will agree that by today's standards...almost EVERYONE in the ante-bellum era would be considered a hopeless racist! North or South LOL

With that said, still, I don't think the Confederacy was "worse" in comparative terms. That is to say, that while slavery existed in the Southern states, it was also a fact that many northern states actually banned black residency. And in those which permitted it, they were subjected to extreme segregation and hatred. The northern states have no credentials for condemming the South -- yesterday or today -- in terms of "racist" attitudes....

Quote:
Still rightly or wrongly the Confederate battle flag is hurtful to many people. It is also really emblematic of a failure that only lasted a few years of Southern history. The Union flag as it stood from July 4, 1851 to July 3, 1858 might work. It flew in the South longer than the Confederacy lasted and no Southern states were added after 1858. (Unless you count Oklahoma as part of the South.)
I can't help that. I wish I could, but I can't. Lots of things are hurtful to lots of people. Lots of things are hurtful to me, but I TRY to understand and accept that those things that bother me are a part of another people's history and heritage. Personally, I despise even the mention of Sheridan (who hated the South and Texans in particular). But I do not demand statues in other parts of the country to his memory be torn down or removed just because I don't like the SOB! LOL

To some historically astute northerners, he is a hero. I accept that. All I ask is that the Confederate Flag be acknowledged as part of my history and heritage, and that negative feelings toward blacks or the North or a secessionist movement have nothing to do with it. Not in the least. It simply, to me, represents pride in my region and of the fighting spirits of my Confederate ancestors. I am proud to be Texan and Southern. And I am proud of those who made it possible.

Neither side has to embrace the other, so to speak. But at least live and let live...

Last edited by TexasReb; 08-23-2009 at 12:22 PM..
 
Old 08-23-2009, 03:04 PM
 
Location: Silver Springs, FL
23,443 posts, read 17,681,375 times
Reputation: 15560
Quote:
Originally Posted by kcguy View Post
Ignorance is displayed frequently when education is lacking, and we all know the South isnt known for its quality education lol. Gun totin' hillbillies all over the place down there and thats the reason they are so obsessed with that stupid flag.
Yup, nothing but ignorance here, move along, nothing to see. Please refrain from visiting our beaches and theme parks, cuz us hillbillies will get ya!
 
Old 08-23-2009, 04:43 PM
 
1,513 posts, read 2,072,531 times
Reputation: 424
Quote:
Originally Posted by kshe95girl View Post
Yup, nothing but ignorance here, move along, nothing to see. Please refrain from visiting our beaches and theme parks, cuz us hillbillies will get ya!
That is if we aren't to busy drinking mash liquor and shooting cans off a fence-post yelling "YEEEEHAAW" every time someone takes a shot.
 
Old 08-23-2009, 05:01 PM
 
Location: Silver Springs, FL
23,443 posts, read 17,681,375 times
Reputation: 15560
Quote:
Originally Posted by Canerican View Post
That is if we aren't to busy drinking mash liquor and shooting cans off a fence-post yelling "YEEEEHAAW" every time someone takes a shot.
You forgot about running around in General Lee, terrorizing the Yankees!!!!!
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