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As Ive told other posters, treason my magnolia-sniffing butt. It was in the ORIGINAL CONTRACT between the states that states could secede from the Union. Virginia, New York AND Rhode Island were some of the first to make this stipulation, and the right was granted to other states as well.
And what the hell do you mean "we"? YOUR state didnt even exist until 1912..it was still the Territory of New Mexico!
The Articles of Confederation were superceded by the Constitution, the 14th Amendment to which makes secessionist Traitiors and Secession Treason.
As for We, what has when Arizona got statehood got to do with it.
Only those states that existed before the Civil War get to have an opinion?
Besides, I'm not a native
I'm from Mississippi and I'm not obsessed with the confederate flag at all. In fact, I saw a car tag today that said Sons of Confederate Vets today for the first time, and it bothered me that the state sells tags for that. I'm all for supporting organizations and causes through tag donations, but really???
I am more proud of my city's flag than I am of my state flag, simply because to me, the Mississippi flag promotes the exact idea that others have about our state - in that we are all backwards and still stuck in the past. I hope one day soon that a new flag will take its place, but with such a strong generation that is still holding on to the ideals of the past, I suspect it will take time.
Because they are proud of their heritage and want to show it. Has nothing to do with slavery...I have a friend in Arkansas who wears a Confederate flag t-shirt sometimes...he has many African American friends (although he doesn't wear the shirt around them). Just because somebody has a Confederate flag doesn't mean they should be treated like Nazis, because you never know what their intentions are.
So why doesn't he wear his shirt around his Black friends if it's just an innocent, neutral symbol of the South?
I've been out of pocket all week, and just now rejoined the forum, and see there is lots on this thread to catch up on and reply to on this topic. Some make good points in an articulate and civil way. Even if I might disagree with them.
Others, such as the poster below, are hardly worthy of response, save for the fact they interupt intelligent and mature discussion with a diatribe they think passes for historical knowledge. So, in playing ketchup, I'll start with this one:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Boompa
Nazism is part of Germany's history but they don't let people fly the Swastika. We didn't fight a war with Africa. we did with the Confederacy.
Go back to post #183 on page 19 and see the differences between Nazi Germany and the Southern Confederacy.
And who is "we"?. WE were/are ALL Americans. The Southern states which formed the Confederate States of American were motivated by the same spirit which sparked the American Revolution (of which Southerners were the most enthusiastic participants both in words, deeds, and support). That is, government derives its powers from the consent of the governed.
It was not a bunch of rebellious Southern states who wanted to overthrow the United States government. It was southern states against northern states-- the latter which kept the name "United States" by default only -- over constitutional issues which, although in a different form and over different issues, STILL exist and are of consequence today.
Quote:
Secession is Treason Secessionists are Traitors
So says you. The powers of the day said different, and not the least from those who would have loved nothing more than to hang the high ranking Confederates as "traitors". Consider this:
Burke Davis, in his book The Long Surrender , on page 204, noted a quote by Chief Justice Salmon P. Chase, telling Edwin Stanton that "If you bring these leaders to trial, it will condemn the North, for by the Constitution, secession is not rebellion...His (Jeff Davis') capture was a mistake. His trial will be a greater one. We cannot convict him of treason."
Davis then continued on page 214, stated that a congressional committee (sort of a grand jury in today's terms) concluded that: "After studying more than 270,000 Confederate documents, seeking evidence against Davis, the court discouraged the War Department: 'Davis (the CSA president) will be found not guilty, and we shall stand there completely beaten'."
With all that said, I think I will move on and reply to a few other posts!
So why doesn't he wear his shirt around his Black friends if it's just an innocent, neutral symbol of the South?
Because a lot of other people, especially African Americans, don't see it as a neutral symbol. African Americans in general I think hate it because if they see someone wearing it, they will assume that guy is a racist and for slavery. He doesn't want them to look at him the wrong way for it. He's careful about when and where he wears it. He is proud of where he is from, but he certainly doesn't want to pick fights about it. His ancestors fought for the Confederacy, he is also stating he is not ashamed of his ancestry. At the same time, he does not want to make himself look like a racist to African Americans, that's his last intention. Look, I'm not saying the flag is neutral, I myself despise it for what it represents. But I also understand where people who wear it are coming from...they hate getting bullied, belittled, and teased about their ancestry...this is their way of saying, "I'm proud of my ancestry." Not everybody agrees with it, that's where my friend is coming from. Now I know many people on here will not understand or they will disagree with what I'm saying about the flag, but it's true. You can't pigeonhole the flag or anyone who wears it as evil. In fact, it's not that evil...while the North did not enslave African Americans during the Civil War, they were still not viewed as equals...abolitionists were a minority even in the North. The North was concerned about preservation of the Union only initially...slavery may have been abolished, but blacks did move much closer to enjoying equal treatment anywhere until around Brown vs. Board and the Civil Rights movements of the 1960s. When you look at things this way, the flag doesn't look nearly as evil...even the Union flag doesn't shine as brightly.
The Articles of Confederation were superceded by the Constitution, the 14th Amendment to which makes secessionist Traitiors and Secession Treason.
As for We, what has when Arizona got statehood got to do with it.
Only those states that existed before the Civil War get to have an opinion?
Besides, I'm not a native
Point was, your state didnt exist, therefore didnt participate...and to shortly answer your question...yes.
The 14th amendment was adopted AFTER the Civil War. Second, FIND ME the text in said amendment that makes secession treason. It defines citizenship, and deals with the debt left by the Confederacy. Dont quote me amendments to the Constitution when you so obviously dont even know what they contain!
Back your statements up. Maybe you'll learn something in the process.
So why doesn't he wear his shirt around his Black friends if it's just an innocent, neutral symbol of the South?
I intend to reply more in detail to your earlier post AKH (which made some good, yet argrumentive, points) but this one warrants a seperate one so related...
In this case, you ask why the friend of AJF, doesn't wear "the shirt" around his black friends. Perhaps it is because the friend in question instinctively realizes, as most Southerners do, the nuances of when and where it is appropriate? A certain sort of "sensitivity" that escapes the mindset of those so ever willing...even wanting...to believe that all who display/wear the Battle Flag (not to be confused with the Stars and Bars) must be motivated by, at the least, racist thoughts/intentions.
In many ways, I thank you for bringing this up. As it is, one of my very best friends is a black guy and the friendship goes from working together for damn near a decade, to catfishing together. I wear my Battle Flag shirts around him, and there is no problem with it. We talk about it sometime and it is NO BIG DEAL!
Because our relationship goes past all that. It seems that it is those who so vehemently object to the Confederate Flag are those who really interfere most with congenial relationships simply for the reason they ALWAYS frame it terms of past events and, more so, insist others see it in the same light.
You almost seem to be -- albeit unintentionally I am sure -- initiating a fight that never need occur to begin with.
The actual flag of the Confederacy probably would be less offensive in the sense that it hasn't been co-opted by White supremacy groups and I have no idea why that flag isn't usually flown by Confederate enthusiasts.
True, most black folks and northern white folks probably wouldn't even know what the actual Confederate Flag is. This one is the "stars and bars", not the battle flag with the "X" on it.
One thing that's odd to me on TexasReb is that as a Texan shouldn't the Texan flag be sufficient? It is the same flag the state flew as an independent nation, right? It's much more a part of Texan heritage than the Confederate battle flag.
Point well taken, Thomas. My answer is that the one doesn't negate the other. Texas history is intrinsically tied to the American South and that includes the Confederate experience and all symbols associated. Point of historical trivia is that there were MANY Battle Flags on the field, and some of the most colorful and original were from Texan units. Noteable among some Texan regiments was an enlarged center star...symbolic of the Lone Star State....
Do they not know that the war has been over since 1865 and that they lost? Do they realize what that ridiculous, uncreative flag (must of took a genius to come up with the idea of putting an X on it) stands for? Do they no longer want to be part of the United States? It is very anti-American to support the views this flag represents.
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