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View Poll Results: Are You Concerned about the increasing Federal Debt of $9 Trillion
Extremely Concerned 39 60.94%
Somewhat Concerned 3 4.69%
Very Concerned 4 6.25%
Concerned 3 4.69%
Not Concerned 6 9.38%
Other 0 0%
Not Sure 0 0%
Our Growing Debt Should Be President Obama's and Congress' Greatest Concern 9 14.06%
Voters: 64. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 08-26-2009, 03:33 PM
 
409 posts, read 1,457,476 times
Reputation: 138

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Quote:
Originally Posted by floridasandy View Post
let's not go with hypothetical numbers. let's look at the actual figures and charts:
United States public debt - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Year Gross Debt in Billions [10] as % of GDP
1910 2.6 n/a
1920 25.9 n/a
1930 16.2 n/a
1940 43.0 52.4
1950 257.4 94.1
1960 290.5 56.1
1970 380.9 37.6
1980 909.0 33.3
1990 3,206.3 55.9
2000 5,628.7 58.0
2001 5,769.9 57.4
2002 6,198.4 59.7
2003 6,760.0 62.5
2004 7,354.7 64.0
2005 7,905.3 64.6
2006 8,451.4 64.9
2007 8,950.7 65.5
2008 9,985.8 70.2 actual percentage of GDP

2009 (est.) 12,867.5 90.4 estimated percentage of GDP
2010 (est.) 14,456.3 98.1 estimated percentage of GDP
2011 (est.) 15,673.9 101.1 -estimated percentage of GDP
Those numbers include state, corporate and personal debt. We were speaking of the federal government's debt so it's just a red herring to this conversation.
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Old 08-26-2009, 03:37 PM
 
409 posts, read 1,457,476 times
Reputation: 138
Quote:
Originally Posted by jetgraphics View Post
Facts that dispute your post:
[1] Silver $14.25 (FRNS) 8/25/2009
Pursuant to the Coinage Act of 1792, a unit dollar has .77 ounces of silver.
Thus a silver dollar (face value = 1) has a Federal Reserve Note value of 10.97. (11:1 roughly)

[2] Fort Knox depository has 147.3 million ounces. Pursuant to the Coinage Act of 1792, a one ounce gold coin is equivalent to 20 unit dollars.
Therefore the DOLLAR value is 2.94 billions.
A Federal reserve note ("dollar bill") is not a dollar, but a promise to pay face value, in lawful money (see: Title 12 USC Sec. 411). That promise was repudiated in 1933, and all FRNs have no par value (worthless).

[3] The fiduciary agent for the creditor (to whom we owe 11.7 trillion DOLLARS - not dollar bills) is the Federal reserve corporation. I sincerely doubt that any gold in their vaults belong to the bankrupt United States government.
Something written in 1792 could not possibly have foresaw the economy we have today. Anyone who would take a one ounce gold coin and trade it for $20 is a idiot. That may have been a great price in 1792 but gold now sells for $944 an ounce so you'd be taking a $924 loss on each coin. It also makes your conclusion of "Therefore the DOLLAR value is 2.94 billions." meaningless.

Clearly dollar bills (or federal reserve notes as you like to call them) are not worthless so long as they continue to exchanged for bread, milk and cheese. If that is too transient for you then exchange them for some other country's currency that you have more faith in. If you want you could convert your FRNs to gold or diamonds but it makes picking up bread, milk and cheese a heck of a lot more difficult.
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Old 08-26-2009, 03:41 PM
 
Location: Brooklyn
40,049 posts, read 34,507,739 times
Reputation: 10610
Nine trillion dollars...nobody on the planet would live long enough to count to nine trillion. At this point, it's an abstraction rather than reality. Is someone going to call in a debt of nine trillion dollars? In that case, I'd say we have something to be concerned about. Otherwise, we'll wake up tomorrow morning and the Republic will still be around.
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Old 08-26-2009, 03:54 PM
 
Location: The Great State of Texas, Finally!
5,465 posts, read 12,206,487 times
Reputation: 2801
Quote:
Originally Posted by saganista View Post
Dude, if Bush had been spending money hand over fist in an urgent effort to keep the world from sinking into another Great Depression, he'd have had a lot of support from liberals. But until TARP, that's not what he was doing. He was spending money hand over fist in some of the fattest times any President ever inherited. Don't forget that Bush took office with a projected ten-year budget SURPLUS of $5.6 trillion, and all of that and nearly as much more again was simply frittered away by the time he began packing his bags to head back to Texas. What did we get for that $10 trillion deficit???
So then it wasn't that Bush was spending so much but that he wasn't spending on what you consider to be priorities? And then everything after TARP is justified?
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Old 08-26-2009, 03:55 PM
 
19,198 posts, read 31,402,044 times
Reputation: 4013
Quote:
Originally Posted by sanrene View Post
You mean "deficit"?
Lots of right-wingers don't know the difference.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sanrene View Post
From a $500 Billion deficit at the end of Bush's term to a $9 Trillion deficit under obama, almost 10 times more than all other presidents combined.
I assume you realize that the Bush number is for ONE year and the Obama number is for TEN years. I assume you realize also that the Bush number is an ACTUAL number and the Obama number is a PROJECTED number based on current law and current budget proposals.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sanrene View Post
He will also more than double the debt in 10 years.
Reagan did it in five. We're still here.
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Old 08-26-2009, 05:30 PM
 
409 posts, read 1,457,476 times
Reputation: 138
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fred314X View Post
Nine trillion dollars...nobody on the planet would live long enough to count to nine trillion. At this point, it's an abstraction rather than reality. Is someone going to call in a debt of nine trillion dollars? In that case, I'd say we have something to be concerned about. Otherwise, we'll wake up tomorrow morning and the Republic will still be around.
If $9 trillion dollars is too big a number for you to grasp then just remember that you personally owe $38,165. Most of that is due to foreign banks.

BTW, if you are married with children then each of them owes the same amount. A family of four owes $152,660.

That doesn't include any state, corporate or personal debt. To fully understand what you owe, you'd have to total that all in on top.

A few years of paying >60% in income taxes should make a significant dent in that.
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Old 08-26-2009, 06:03 PM
 
Location: Prepperland
18,874 posts, read 14,066,729 times
Reputation: 16584
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fred Derf View Post
Something written in 1792 could not possibly have foresaw the economy we have today. Anyone who would take a one ounce gold coin and trade it for $20 is a idiot. That may have been a great price in 1792 but gold now sells for $944 an ounce so you'd be taking a $924 loss on each coin. It also makes your conclusion of "Therefore the DOLLAR value is 2.94 billions." meaningless.

Clearly dollar bills (or federal reserve notes as you like to call them) are not worthless so long as they continue to exchanged for bread, milk and cheese. If that is too transient for you then exchange them for some other country's currency that you have more faith in. If you want you could convert your FRNs to gold or diamonds but it makes picking up bread, milk and cheese a heck of a lot more difficult.
Please do not take offense. I realize that you are a victim of pervasive propaganda. But please visit the nearest county courthouse law library and check the official record. You will find that the constitutional money is still gold / silver coin. The law is the law, whether you "believe it or not".

Your assumption that Federal Reserve Notes (it's not what I like to call them - it's what the LAW says they are) have value is based on transactions with them.

Since the FRNs are obligations of the U.S. government, the government must accept their own notes, in lieu of payment with real dollars for all taxes, duties, and fees.

You may not be aware of the legal reason WHY you must accept worthless notes as a tender in discharge of debt owed to you (as in remuneration for your valuable labor). Under FICA / Socialist InSecurity, each participant / contributor is equally liable for paying on those notes. That's why they are "legal tender" but not lawful money.

Those who are not in the socialist system can object to their tender. And you can be sure that the creditor will not accept those notes, once 51% of the American people cease volunteering to be sureties on the debt.

What is more likely, since new FRNs are borrowed, at usury, into existence, for Congress to increase the amount, it has to sell Treasury bills, to authorize printing them. (No, Congress has no power to create money. Only power it has is to "coin money" - stamp bullion or BORROW money on the credit of the U.S.)

Since 2007, Congress has borrowed more (deficit spending) that it paid in interest. Congress is paying past investors with funds from new investors. Isn't that what Bernard Madoff went to prison for doing?

When the point is reached where there are no customers for the Toxic T-bills, that's when the spigot shuts off. And the money drought will hit America - HARD.

Remember - FRNs are not dollars - and the number of FRNs in circulation is a tiny fraction of the book value of all accounts, stocks, bonds, etc, etc.
One of the reasons for the swift banking bailout was to get liquidity into the financial institutions, and forestall a run.

When the "music" stops - there are not enough "chairs". And you will see an initial jump in the buying power of those worthless notes... But even they will cease to have trade value once the SHTF.

(NO, I do not advocate a return to species coin. There is not enough precious metal to support such a coin system. It may take an amendment to the Constitution to clean up the mess created in 1787.)
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Old 08-26-2009, 06:10 PM
 
Location: NE Ohio
30,421 posts, read 20,221,469 times
Reputation: 8958
Quote:
Originally Posted by zz4guy View Post
**** GWB. He started the bailout prescedent. But Obama is equally responsible (if not more) for continuing it.
No, he [Bush] didn't. But Obama has gone way beyond anything we have ever seen in our history.
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Old 08-26-2009, 06:12 PM
 
Location: NE Ohio
30,421 posts, read 20,221,469 times
Reputation: 8958
Quote:
Originally Posted by calipoppy View Post
Funny how no one (especially the Right Wing) asked that question when GWB wanted to march our soliders off to Iraq to avenge his father.
Perhaps it is because he didn't "march our soldiers off to Iraq to avenge his father". Get a life. That is such a tired argument, to say nothing of the fact that it is a lie.

Ever heard of "9/11"? Or weren't you born yet?

Yeah, I know, Iraq "didn't attack us". Ever heard of military strategy?

It always amazes me that people who know nothing about anything, let alone military strategy, are the first to critique our actions in any conflict.
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Old 08-26-2009, 06:14 PM
 
Location: South Fla
9,644 posts, read 9,821,621 times
Reputation: 1942
Quote:
Originally Posted by calipoppy View Post
Funny how no one (especially the Right Wing) asked that question when GWB wanted to march our soliders off to Iraq to avenge his father.
Enough with the Bush did something so that means Obama should also. That isnt change you can believe in

So if someone drives their car into a building are you going to follow in your car?

Come on now enough is enough
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