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Old 09-05-2009, 12:11 PM
 
Location: Planet Eaarth
8,957 posts, read 16,747,575 times
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America was warned back in the 1950's about the very conflicts that are tearing America apart today.

Eisenhower's Forgotten Warning and the Threat of Authoritarian Currents in Our Politics | Politics | AlterNet

Presidential Papers, Doc#1051 Personal To Robert J. Biggs, 10 February 1959. In The Papers of Dwight David Eisenhower
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Old 09-05-2009, 12:13 PM
 
Location: Portland, Oregon
7,091 posts, read 10,383,985 times
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"in a democracy debate is the breath of life.”

A truer statement is rarely heard. Considering the demand of the extremists of their way or the high way, should never be forgotten.
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Old 09-05-2009, 12:25 PM
 
20,105 posts, read 37,322,058 times
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Hey there, GREAT stuff, from one of the BEST presidents we ever had, a GOP'er and a bonafide lifetime career ARMY hero.

Here's an excerpt from Ike's letter:

- Although Eisenhower is commonly remembered for a farewell address that raised concerns about the “military-industrial complex,” his letter offers an equally important — and relevant — warning: to beware the danger posed by those seeking freedom from the “mental stress and burden” of democracy.


That mental stress and burden is many things. One of which is the absolute requirement to clearly define our national priorities and to arrive at the point of decision via very careful analysis of all points of view. Sadly, that is lacking in much of the health care debate, indeed, it's been that way since G. W. Bush took office and quickly became "shut up, sit down, do it OUR way or get the hell out of here." No thanks to that attitude from the right.

In all the screaming being done by the far right on the health care debate, there is no one debating the ethical reasons for health care, all we hear is that it will cost too much, it will put government too deeply into health care, let the private sector do it, it will be a mess, etc. All of these "complaints" are baseless, just a bunch of red herring issued being raised. The buffoons who've disrupted the town hall meetings are being played for suckers by the Dick Armey's of the world, and the shadowy corporate ghouls that want to bleed you to death financially.
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Old 09-05-2009, 01:17 PM
 
17,009 posts, read 11,188,114 times
Reputation: 8980
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike from back east View Post
Hey there, GREAT stuff, from one of the BEST presidents we ever had, a GOP'er and a bonafide lifetime career ARMY hero.

Here's an excerpt from Ike's letter:

- Although Eisenhower is commonly remembered for a farewell address that raised concerns about the “military-industrial complex,” his letter offers an equally important — and relevant — warning: to beware the danger posed by those seeking freedom from the “mental stress and burden” of democracy.


That mental stress and burden is many things. One of which is the absolute requirement to clearly define our national priorities and to arrive at the point of decision via very careful analysis of all points of view. Sadly, that is lacking in much of the health care debate, indeed, it's been that way since G. W. Bush took office and quickly became "shut up, sit down, do it OUR way or get the hell out of here." No thanks to that attitude from the right.

In all the screaming being done by the far right on the health care debate, there is no one debating the ethical reasons for health care, all we hear is that it will cost too much, it will put government too deeply into health care, let the private sector do it, it will be a mess, etc. All of these "complaints" are baseless, just a bunch of red herring issued being raised. The buffoons who've disrupted the town hall meetings are being played for suckers by the Dick Armey's of the world, and the shadowy corporate ghouls that want to bleed you to death financially.

It is quite the opposite. The freedom from "mental stress and burden of democracy" refers to citzens shirking thier civic duties and resorting to complacency and dependence on the government for thier existence. The burden of democracy is one's individual support and effort to maintain freedom, not to submit one's will to the government.

You should read more of Ike. It is a little shocking that you are actually ascribing socialistic views to him, as the guy had completely diametrically opposite views to what you contend.

I actually have a nice autographed photo of Ike in my office I like very much. I have autographed photos of every president since the advent of photography, but I have left out a few democrats (Carter, Clinton, and JFK), as I really did not like them as presidents. Truman is one of my favorites and I actually like FDR, despite his socialist bent. Johnson was a great politician and a bulldog, so he makes "the wall" despite being a little on the oppressive side. I have left off George Bush -2 as well. Wasn't Bush 2 a democrat anyway?
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Old 09-05-2009, 01:48 PM
 
Location: Great State of Texas
86,094 posts, read 68,853,180 times
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Good article. His fear is coming of age.

I especially thought this was enlightening:

Hoffer “points out that dictatorial systems make one contribution to their people which leads them to tend to support such systems — freedom from the necessity of informing themselves and making up their own minds concerning these tremendous complex and difficult questions.”

That is exactly true today....bigger government to "fix our problems so we don't have to do it ourselves". Apathy and complacency mixed with greed and envy are slowly eating away at our once great democracy.
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Old 09-05-2009, 01:53 PM
 
32,319 posts, read 14,011,618 times
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"In all the screaming being done by the far right".

I've seen many Democrats screaming at the Town Halls. Maybe you should check your sources before condemning.
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Old 09-05-2009, 02:41 PM
 
31,385 posts, read 30,652,498 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HappyTexan View Post

That is exactly true today....bigger government to "fix our problems so we don't have to do it ourselves". Apathy and complacency mixed with greed and envy are slowly eating away at our once great democracy.
How does one fix, let's say default debt swaps, environmental degradation, or a broken health care system just to name a few, by oneself?

Inquiring minds would like to know.
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Old 09-05-2009, 02:44 PM
 
Location: Great State of Texas
86,094 posts, read 68,853,180 times
Reputation: 27497
Quote:
Originally Posted by ovcatto View Post
How does one fix, let's say default debt swaps, environmental degradation, or a broken health care system just to name a few, by oneself?

Inquiring minds would like to know.
Get the government out of it, that's how.
Let competition drive lower prices.
That is happening today with doctors giving lower costs for cash payment.
Yes, it's on a small scale but it is happening. Let insurance just cover hospitalization and catostrophic care.

That's just regarding healthcare.
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Old 09-05-2009, 02:54 PM
 
31,385 posts, read 30,652,498 times
Reputation: 14861
Quote:
Originally Posted by HappyTexan View Post
Get the government out of it, that's how.
Let competition drive lower prices.
That is happening today with doctors giving lower costs for cash payment.
Yes, it's on a small scale but it is happening. Let insurance just cover hospitalization and catostrophic care.

That's just regarding healthcare.
Get the government out of regulating securities, environmental protection???

That's it, that's your answer, we have to get the government out of it? We implies collective action, not individual; I'm confused.

As for your, doctors giving lower cost for cash payment, ah who has a hundred or so thousand sitting around for major hospitalization? Oh, right, that's what insurance is for, unless of course you can't obtain insurance due to a pre-existing condition, were dropped because you have reach some magic life time cost...

Ask a simple minded question (on purpose) get a simple minded answer (as expected).
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Old 09-05-2009, 03:08 PM
 
Location: Great State of Texas
86,094 posts, read 68,853,180 times
Reputation: 27497
Quote:
Originally Posted by ovcatto View Post
Get the government out of regulating securities, environmental protection???

That's it, that's your answer, we have to get the government out of it? We implies collective action, not individual; I'm confused.

As for your, doctors giving lower cost for cash payment, ah who has a hundred or so thousand sitting around for major hospitalization? Oh, right, that's what insurance is for, unless of course you can't obtain insurance due to a pre-existing condition, were dropped because you have reach some magic life time cost...

Ask a simple minded question (on purpose) get a simple minded answer (as expected).
I said that was for "just the healthcare" piece.
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