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When we're clearly NOT. I'm not talking about our health care PROVIDERS, but our health care "system" I've only heard a few people in the media, and NO ONE on here who seemed to know what they were talking about regarding the way "others" (modern, industrialized/rich countries) handle their health care.
We are "number one" in some regards. If you are RICH and in bad shape you'll jump on your private jet and fly to the US and pay for whatever you need. But if you are "middle" or worse, lower class you may have to fight your way through a maze of paperwork just to stay alive.
Let's look at some of the failings of our system, and the SHOUTED answers, that haven't been proven to work anywhere.
1. Not all "socialist" countries have "socialized" healthcare. England, France, Germany and Canada's health care systems bear almost no relationship to each other. Whereas who you are in the US may mean that your "system" is closer to one or the other of them.
2. They ration care with waiting lists and limited choice. One of the biggest lies told by those opposing any change. Anecdotal evidence can cherry pick any story, but the FACT remains that many foreign systems have shorter wait lists for major procedures than we do.
3. They have a wasteful, bloated bureaucracy. Actually the MOST WASTEFUL bureaucracy in the industry is the US health INSURANCE industry. 20% of every dollar goes to NON-MEDICAL expenses; staff, corporate jets, bonuses, etc.
So, if you want to have a DISCUSSION about what can be done to fix the "system" come on in. If you just want to shout "SOCIALISM" and "government takeover", just keep it to yourself.
Before you jump in though, here's a few things you might want to know;
Yes our doctors do EARN more than doctors in those other countries. But, our doctors typicall owe well over $100,000 on the day they get their MD, and they don't start "earning" for a few more years. Higher education is FREE to the docs in foreign countries.
Any American doc can tell you TO THE DOLLAR how much their medical malpractice insurance costs generally over $100,000. Few foreign docs can. In Germany it's typically 1,000 Euros, about $1,600 at today's rate.
And if you think that "tort reform" is the answer consider these two stats about states that I'm very familiar with, in CA tort reform took place in 1970! Drs. who started practicing in 1970 are either already retired or close to it. It has had negligible effect. TX instutued some of the strictest tort reform for medical malpractice and their malpractice insurance rates continued to increase at a rate higher than the national average.
According to reputable studies, some done by Kaiser who ought to know, they're in the business, medical malpractice costs about 1%. Also cutting the pay of docs, nurses etc, and the costs of prescriptions to European levels doens't have much affect either. That pretty much leaves that 20% PLUS that the insurance companies take out.
The tort reformers are a strange lot.
They tend to be the very ones who espouse a free market solution to our medical problems.
Some of the biggest proponents of the free market are Libertarians and their solution to things like pollution is that the government should not interfere, but that we should sue the pants off the polluting industries.
So a true capitalist could never advocate tort caps.
I appreciated it when Obama reminded us that when Social Security was first proposed a similar struggle went on and, like this, the most heated argument was that it was socialism, but people today would not do without it.
And, he said the same situation again presented itself with Medicare, with the same result.
Now, with healthcare we are going through it again.
Yeah, we're number one in the for-profit health care industry because we're the only industrialized country to have it as so whereas other countries, namely Canada, Japan, Germany, (ect.) make it illegal to operate the healthcare industry in for-profit mode.
Something to be perversely proud of, do you think?!
The tort reformers are a strange lot.
They tend to be the very ones who espouse a free market solution to our medical problems.
Some of the biggest proponents of the free market are Libertarians and their solution to things like pollution is that the government should not interfere, but that we should sue the pants off the polluting industries.
So a true capitalist could never advocate tort caps.
I appreciated it when Obama reminded us that when Social Security was first proposed a similar struggle went on and, like this, the most heated argument was that it was socialism, but people today would not do without it.
And, he said the same situation again presented itself with Medicare, with the same result.
Now, with healthcare we are going through it again.
Where is your evidence that Libertarians want to sue the pants off polluting industries?
That statement along with most of this post is baseless dribble.
When we're clearly NOT. I'm not talking about our health care PROVIDERS, but our health care "system" I've only heard a few people in the media, and NO ONE on here who seemed to know what they were talking about regarding the way "others" (modern, industrialized/rich countries) handle their health care.
We are "number one" in some regards. If you are RICH and in bad shape you'll jump on your private jet and fly to the US and pay for whatever you need. But if you are "middle" or worse, lower class you may have to fight your way through a maze of paperwork just to stay alive.
Let's look at some of the failings of our system, and the SHOUTED answers, that haven't been proven to work anywhere.
1. Not all "socialist" countries have "socialized" healthcare. England, France, Germany and Canada's health care systems bear almost no relationship to each other. Whereas who you are in the US may mean that your "system" is closer to one or the other of them.
2. They ration care with waiting lists and limited choice. One of the biggest lies told by those opposing any change. Anecdotal evidence can cherry pick any story, but the FACT remains that many foreign systems have shorter wait lists for major procedures than we do.
3. They have a wasteful, bloated bureaucracy. Actually the MOST WASTEFUL bureaucracy in the industry is the US health INSURANCE industry. 20% of every dollar goes to NON-MEDICAL expenses; staff, corporate jets, bonuses, etc.
So, if you want to have a DISCUSSION about what can be done to fix the "system" come on in. If you just want to shout "SOCIALISM" and "government takeover", just keep it to yourself.
Before you jump in though, here's a few things you might want to know;
Yes our doctors do EARN more than doctors in those other countries. But, our doctors typicall owe well over $100,000 on the day they get their MD, and they don't start "earning" for a few more years. Higher education is FREE to the docs in foreign countries.
Any American doc can tell you TO THE DOLLAR how much their medical malpractice insurance costs generally over $100,000. Few foreign docs can. In Germany it's typically 1,000 Euros, about $1,600 at today's rate.
And if you think that "tort reform" is the answer consider these two stats about states that I'm very familiar with, in CA tort reform took place in 1970! Drs. who started practicing in 1970 are either already retired or close to it. It has had negligible effect. TX instutued some of the strictest tort reform for medical malpractice and their malpractice insurance rates continued to increase at a rate higher than the national average.
According to reputable studies, some done by Kaiser who ought to know, they're in the business, medical malpractice costs about 1%. Also cutting the pay of docs, nurses etc, and the costs of prescriptions to European levels doens't have much affect either. That pretty much leaves that 20% PLUS that the insurance companies take out.
Let's discuss.
golfgod
I can't discuss this with you since my government put me on Medicare nearly 12 years ago and I have no gripes about that, what people like you call, socialism. I do get to keep paying through my Social Security check for Medicare but then most people that don't know that that it isn't completely free. Whoops, I admitted to being on another of the social systems we have.
You won't get much response to this muse until you provide some links to back up some the assertions you make.
For example: You mention shorter wait lists, but no proof of that. You mention bloated bureaucracy, but no proof of the percentages or comparison to other nations. You mention tort reform, increased malpractice insurance rates, and neglible effect in CA/TX.
Why should we believe you? The impetus is on you to make your argument whole.
Other countries make it illegal to operate the healthcare industry in for-profit mode.
As I wrote in the OP, the problem isn't the costs or operation of the "health care" industry, it's the costs and SCREWED UP OPERATION of the health insurance industry. Ask your doc how much something complicated costs and he CAN'T ANSWER. He doesn't know because it depends on who is paying, not just the insurance carrier but the "plan" within the carrier.
Any proof of this? No? In Britain it's common for docs to do things "outside" the NHC to make extra money.
Aeroguy. Try reading something rather than listening to Congresswhackos who don't know what they're talking about. I'd suggest you start with "The Healing of America" by T. R. Reid. It's a pretty straightforward book with about 250 pages. It's not all dry statistics and charts, lots of good "human interest" stories to keep the reader's interest.
I'm not going to cite every reference. I realize I'm going out on a limb here but I think that most people on this site, like you are smart and always looking to learn more so as not to appear as idiotic as some of the talking (shouting?) heads. Study up and let's discuss. If all you can add is "link or it's not true" I'll assume you're not interested in an intelligent discussion.
As I wrote in the OP, the problem isn't the costs or operation of the "health care" industry, it's the costs and SCREWED UP OPERATION of the health insurance industry. Ask your doc how much something complicated costs and he CAN'T ANSWER. He doesn't know because it depends on who is paying, not just the insurance carrier but the "plan" within the carrier.
Any proof of this? No? In Britain it's common for docs to do things "outside" the NHC to make extra money.
Aeroguy. Try reading something rather than listening to Congresswhackos who don't know what they're talking about. I'd suggest you start with "The Healing of America" by T. R. Reid. It's a pretty straightforward book with about 250 pages. It's not all dry statistics and charts, lots of good "human interest" stories to keep the reader's interest.
I'm not going to cite every reference. I realize I'm going out on a limb here but I think that most people on this site, like you are smart and always looking to learn more so as not to appear as idiotic as some of the talking (shouting?) heads. Study up and let's discuss. If all you can add is "link or it's not true" I'll assume you're not interested in an intelligent discussion.
golfgod
Golfgod, you made the claim, the burden of proof is on you. Either post some links to back up what you say or be quiet. You bring up a topic, don't substantiate your claims and then say everyone else should 'study up'? How arrogant of a statement can you make? Either approach this semi-intellectually or stay quiet.
I guess because no one wants to shout "WE'RE NUMBER 2!"
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