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Mn you are really comparing food to health care? Food is cheap . When food prices outpace salaries by 4x's and it cost as much as a mortgage to provide food, then come back and talk to me about it.. seriously.
I'm not selfish because I'm not looking foe anything for free nor am I trying to take from you.
I'm simply want the ability to pay onto the system but at what I can afford.
As for my proving your point hardly. I don't WANT to go to the Dr. My need for the Dr is not frivolous but necessary because of my condition. Not going puts my health further in jeopardy and could very well lead to complications that in the end would be more costly to treat. At this point, by defaultm you and everyone else will end up paying for treatment should something happen with my condition and I end up on the hospital with complications as a result.
As for market correcting the high comp problem that is complete BS. Insurance has no incentive whatsoever to do any such thing however a public option, one in which operates at a far lower over head, is the thing needed to force the INS companies to tr their excess. I for one would like the option to buy a policy where my money is going to the medicine and not to some CEO and his excessive lifestyle. Pretty sad when u look at the comp difference between a CEO and a Dr. On has his life in your hand. You trust your life to someone that makes like 164k a year average but worry about money in the hands of someone making only $400k a year, as you stated. That right there tells me what you value more.
Last edited by TristansMommy; 09-15-2009 at 02:54 PM..
By the way my grandparents didn't fight in wars for this country could be slipped into third world status like Rwanda. Why the hell are you bringing up Rwanda anyway. We are talking about the AMERICAN health carer system for Americans
Yeah life is not fair but what is great about it is that we have the ability to make it more so in our actions or inactions. The great thing about the US is that we are a land where things are more fair, where we are a land of wealth in which people do have extravegent lifestyles.. our poor live far better here than anywhere else.
You want dog eat dog and third world rules go live in a third world country !!!
Your long answer simply boils down to one thing. You don't want me or others like me to be allowed into the system because it may cost you more. In essence you condemn us to death so that you can save a few bucks . You try to disguise it with all back talk and BS excuses but that is ultimately what it comes down to.
You still don't get it. You could very easily find yourself in my position no matter how responsible you think you are being. Your high now and judgmental because you think you are secure. But that's a joke. There are many like you who thought they were so responsible and find themselves suddenly and very easily on the other side.
Last edited by TristansMommy; 09-15-2009 at 02:59 PM..
Walk into your local hospital's emergency room and tell them you would like a routine colonoscopy, mammogram or pap smear just as a preventive measure and tell me how it goes...Duh!
and why should you get these tests automatically? If you have no insurance and you truely have an emergancy we all know it will be treated. If you have the money to pay, you can be treated. In the case of the OP, she has said her brother in law will not work, not that he can't work so, we, as a counrty should provide any kind of medical care for him while he chooses not to work> What kind of reasoning is that may I ask?
and why should you get these tests automatically? If you have no insurance and you truely have an emergancy we all know it will be treated. If you have the money to pay, you can be treated. In the case of the OP, she has said her brother in law will not work, not that he can't work so, we, as a counrty should provide any kind of medical care for him while he chooses not to work> What kind of reasoning is that may I ask?
Nita
First.. i don't think the OP said that her brother doesn't work. She simply said that he doesn't have insurance. Obviously he has some money because he was being seen by a Dr. despite not having insurance.
The problem now is that he has a medical problem BEYOND his ability to pay. So he'll get the "emergency" treatment and be sent home.. with a script and orders to see a regular cardiologist.
If the meds he requires to take are excessive in costs (and meds can be hundreds of dollars for a one week supply).. where does that leave him. Sure, he can not take hte meds as directed because he couldn't afford them only to end up in the ER again with the same problem.. rinse and repeat!!
The health care reform as being talked about now is not FREE health care for anyone. It's simply reform that allows people like me.. adn the OP's brotehr, to purchase into the system.. just like your employer does for you. We have otherwise been locked out by excessive cost AND/Or pre-existing conditino clauses
If the OP's brother in law were a non working person with no means.. he woudl be enrolled on medicaid.. which is FREE health care.
Mn you ate really comparing food to healthcare? Food is cheap very and healthcare is extremely expensive. Your comparison is pathetic .
I'm not selfish because I'm not looking foe anything for free mor am I trying to take from you.
I'm simply want the ability to pay onto the system but at what I can afford.
As for my proving your point hardly. O don't WANT to go to the dr. My need for the dr is not frivolous but neccesary because of my condition. Not going puts my health further in jeopardy and could very well lead to complications that in the end would be more costly to treat. At this point by default you and everyone else will end up paying for treatment should something happen with my condition and I end up on the hospital.
As for market correcting the high comp problem that is complete bs. Insurance has no incentive whatsoever to do any such thing however a public option, one in which operates at a far lower overhhead, is the thing needed to force the INS companies to tr their excess. I for one would like the option to buy a policy where my money is going to the medicine and not to se CEO and his excessive lifestyle. Pretty sad when u look at the comp difference between a CEO and a dr. On has his life in your hand. You trist your life to someone tha makes like 164k a year but worry about money in the hands of someone making only $400k a year, as you stated. That right there tells me what you value more.
I think we need to agree to disagree. I never said that your appointments were frivolous. I said budget curves are one of the Laws of economics. If it is cheaper, people use it more. And that is why the state of MA had a lot more people going to the doctor. It should be common sense that the demand will go up. If I was at the helm, I'd put in some pretty hefty deductibles. At least an event won't bankrupt someone. For me, that would be a goal of any reform to fix that problem without opening up the spiket. In summary, you point to examples why you think a budget curve is invalad (people won't' use health care more). Sorry you are dead wrong.
If you are not willing to be taxed to help the poor people all across the world, I'm calling you selfish. You are rationalizing. Somehow you think that I should help you. If I don't want to, I'm selfish. Well. If you won't help someone in Rwanda with their health care you are selfish. The difference is I can admit it and you cannot. I used the example to show you the irony. Most people cannot handle the truth.
It will cost me $140 to get my Son's arm re-x-rayed. I'm looking at the bill three weeks back. I'm pushing that out because it is expensive. I also mow my own grass because that is "expensive" at $150 per week for 2 acres. You told me that an Aspirin is expensive. I told you that most of it is because of overhead. What's new?? That is why a cheap brand bottle is wine is expensive (400x mark-up) in a restaurant. You don't see the analogy?? I KNOW that healthcare can cost Mega thousands for a short stay. I get that. But don't focus on the Aspirin thinking you figured out why it's so expensive (big greedy CEO's, politicians that are paid off, etc etc). In actuality, you are talking about the inequities that are real but that isn't the bulk of the budget problems. The talking points are easier to understand when you point to a greedy CEO. But you are not getting the real problem.
Re: $400K CEO. Sorry. The "cheap" Doc's make $150K. Look up what the Dermatologist, Radiologist, Cardiologists, Anesthesiologist, Orthopedic Surgeon make. Most get paid North of $500K. Sorry, I don't want the $164K Cardiologist.
There are reasons why extremely motivated and talented people make a lot of money. They are about 1% of this the population and are the reason why the USA is-where-it-is. Strip away their motivation to be ultra high performance and we turn into Europe or Canada. Be careful what you wish for; the "average" tax rate is over 50% on the working family. Why work hard if you are taxed to death???
Back to that $400K CEO example. If you are a high performance person going 100% day in and day out and have all of the tools to maneuver a multi billion dollar company (Doctor / MD; MBA; Harvard Grad; top 1/8 of 1% brain power) you better be making a lot more than $400K. If you think that is expensive, you have no clue. Worth $1xx million??? Of course not. But it's not my business unless I am a stock holder. That is the beauty of our system. It's far from perfect.
One thing is for certain, I want the government as far away from running a business as possible. you give them WAY too much credit. I've observed how they run Medicare, SS, the Post Office, the Military (waste) etc. They are positively THE most pathetic people to run 1/6 of our entire health care system.
With all do respect, you are too close to the problem to be subjective. And any life guard; a drowning person will drown the life guard to stay alive. Sorry...
LoL but dont you get it..liberals want it all to be FREEEEEEEEEEEE!
"Only problem with socialism is...Sooner or later you run out of OTHER peoples money"
I don't want it to be free.
I support a single payer system which would be payed for by:
Quote:
A universal public system would be financed in the following way: The public funds already funneled to Medicare and Medicaid would be retained. The difference, or the gap between current public funding and what we would need for a universal health care system, would be financed by a payroll tax on employers (about 7%) and an income tax on individuals (about 2%). The payroll tax would replace all other employer expenses for employees’ health care, which would be eliminated. The income tax would take the place of all current insurance premiums, co-pays, deductibles, and other out-of-pocket payments. For the vast majority of people, a 2% income tax is less than what they now pay for insurance premiums and out-of-pocket payments such as co-pays and deductibles, particularly if a family member has a serious illness. It is also a fair and sustainable contribution
I'm also not opposed to people paying co-pays. If you use the doctor more, your co-pays will be higher than someone who hardly ever visits the doctor. I would even be in favor of waving co-pays for those who hardly ever visit the doctor.
Your long answer simply boils down to one thing. You don't want me or others like me to be allowed into the system because it may cost you more. In essence you condemn us to death so that you can save a few bucks . You try to disguise it with all back talk and BS excuses but that is ultimately what it comes down to.
You still don't get it. You could very easily find yourself in my position no matter how responsible you think you are being. Your high now and judgmental because you think you are secure. But that's a joke. There are many like you who thought they were so responsible and find themselves suddenly and very easily on the other side.
You are making assumptions. If I go down, then 95% of the people around me will have failed before me. I have contingency plans. I take personal responsibility to the fullest.
No offense but if I am in your shoes, then that probably meant that I didn't do my personal best. That was not meant to be personal; I'm telling it like it is. I don't blame others for where I am. If I am a betting man, your economic problems are deeper than diabetes.
The day I was born I was terminal. We all are.
I would like to help people. I would. But I'm paying $12K after paying a $4700 deductible. I refuse to pay more if unless I have to (in the form of taxes). I care about you equally as much as my Rwanda example. But I care about my family more. Get mad at me for being honest.
I get the sense that you think you figured out the way to get healthcare for cheap. Fix the CEO pay, go medicare style, buy generic drugs, etc. You tackled a small part of the formula and are willing to allow our stupid government to control 1/6 of our economy so you don't drown in red ink.
I say fix it other ways but the "compassion" in ignorant business minded people want to open the governments wallet. They will point to other wastes like the stupid war in Iraq or CEO pay to rationalize why it is a better to waste money their way. If someone like me agrees the war was a waste and that Bush was an idiot, it takes out their steam.
I think we need to agree to disagree. I never said that your appointments were frivolous. I said budget curves are one of the Laws of economics. If it is cheaper, people use it more. And that is why the state of MA had a lot more people going to the doctor. It should be common sense that the demand will go up. If I was at the helm, I'd put in some pretty hefty deductibles. At least an event won't bankrupt someone. For me, that would be a goal of any reform to fix that problem without opening up the spiket. In summary, you point to examples why you think a budget curve is invalad (people won't' use health care more). Sorry you are dead wrong.
Your logic is ridiculous. Yes, if medical care is less expensive more people will be able to seek the care they NEED!! Why is that so terrible? What's more terrible is the fact that people are NOT seeking the care they need because it's too cost prohibitive. As a result.. people end up sicker.. conditions worsen and that can and does often lead to death.
So .. really you want to keep people away from getting the care they need for the inconvenience of having to wait on line. That maybe perhaps you'll have to wait just a little longer to get the care you need?
Your time is really worth someone's life? Because basically that is what it boils down to.
People don't WANT to go to the Dr. It's not a luxury for crying out loud. Most peopole avoid the Dr. as much as they can. My husband won't go at all (and fortunately he hasn't ever really needed to)
BTW.. I had my kid 3 years ago and my "primary care" or family doctor doesn't even know I had a kid.. .that's how often I had seen my doctor when I did have insurance . The ONLY reason I went to a DR is because I needed to and that Dr. was my endocronologist.
It's not as if the Dr's office is an amusememt park we're all going to be flooding because it's being given away "cheap".
That is just plain silly.
So.. then deny people medical care they need because there are just too many people. ..
Quote:
If you are not willing to be taxed to help the poor people all across the world, I'm calling you selfish. You are rationalizing. Somehow you think that I should help you. If I don't want to, I'm selfish. Well. If you won't help someone in Rwanda with their health care you are selfish. The difference is I can admit it and you cannot. I used the example to show you the irony. Most people cannot handle the truth.
News for you buddy.. our taxes already go to help other countries of the world. U.S spends the most on aiding other nations of the world than any other country. Or did you miss the articles on how U.S is providing Iraqis with free health care
I'm not complaining about that.. what I am complaining about is how you and yours complain about helping your own countrymen, but not when it comes to the money we spend OUTSIDE the country.
Oh.. and lest not forget the billions spend to help the rich this past year (ie: the CEO's of the companies they tanked!!!)
Comparing countries by the raw amount of aid given, the U.S. gives the largest amount of aid at $21.75 billion (Graph 8). This is much greater than any other country.
I never said I didn't want my money I pay in taxes to go to other countries.. but what I DO object to is when we DO send money to help citizens of other nations, yet we refuse to help citizens of our OWN nation!! How stupid is that!!!
We are quick to bail out CEO's and banks.. .aww.. those poor Wall Street guys had to sell their plane but when it comes to getting people ACCESS to life saving treatments.. by passing reform that would actually OPEN UP THE DOOR for them to buy into the system... our country goes into a tizzy about it
Revolting!!
Quote:
It will cost me $140 to get my Son's arm re-x-rayed. I'm looking at the bill three weeks back. I'm pushing that out because it is expensive. I also mow my own grass because that is "expensive" at $150 per week for 2 acres. You told me that an Aspirin is expensive. I told you that most of it is because of overhead. What's new?? That is why a cheap brand bottle is wine is expensive (400x mark-up) in a restaurant. You don't see the analogy?? I KNOW that healthcare can cost Mega thousands for a short stay. I get that. But don't focus on the Aspirin thinking you figured out why it's so expensive (big greedy CEO's, politicians that are paid off, etc etc). In actuality, you are talking about the inequities that are real but that isn't the bulk of the budget problems. The talking points are easier to understand when you point to a greedy CEO. But you are not getting the real problem.
NOt a BIG portion of the problem..LOL.. okay.. It's a HUGE problem.. for example:
UnitedHealth has spent over $12.6 million since 2007 to lobby against healthcare reform - this could cover the average healthcare cost of 992 families of four for one year
BTW: 10% of 14.9 billion is 1.4 billion. If basic insurance costs $8,000/year for a family then taking 10% from just these CEO salaries would insure 35,000 Americans a year for five years.
That is just the tip of the iceberg!!!
Let's not forget that the cost of that Asprin is also up because of uncompensated care and the lossest hat incurr as a result.
Total medical care expenditures among all of the uninsured in 2004 (including both those
without coverage for all or part of the year) are almost $125 billion.
Quote:
The primary source of funding for
uncompensated care is government
dollars. Projected federal, state, and
local spending available to pay for the
care of the uninsured in 2004 is $34.6
billion—about 85% of the total
uncompensated care bill.
Quote:
Re: $400K CEO. Sorry. The "cheap" Doc's make $150K. Look up what the Dermatologist, Radiologist, Cardiologists, Anesthesiologist, Orthopedic Surgeon make. Most get paid North of $500K. Sorry, I don't want the $164K Cardiologist.
That's the average salary of a Dr. in the U.S. As far as specia lists are concerned.. yes they are compensated far higher.. which is why we have a shortage of primary care Doctors.. we need more primary care doctors so that someone with a gas pains isn't running to the gastro guy at 3x's the cost when he could have been evaluated FIRST by a family doctor to determine the need for a specialist
There are reasons why extremely motivated and talented people make a lot of money. They are about 1% of this the population and are the reason why the USA is-where-it-is. Strip away their motivation to be ultra high performance and we turn into Europe or Canada. Be careful what you wish for; the "average" tax rate is over 50% on the working family. Why work hard if you are taxed to death???
The problem with that type of thinking is what is geting the US in trouble now!! The wealthy think THEY ARE AMERICA.. but without their workers they would be NOWHERE!! AND without the WORKING MIDDLE CLASS driving the economy with their SPENDING on what those 1% have to offer.. they would be NOWHERE!!!!
Is that NOT EVIDENT yet to you. Just look at how the middle income is being squeezed.. as a result WE STOP SPENDING .. and as a result.. THEY STOP MAKING THEIR RICHES !!!
When that 1% started thinking that they didn't need us.. that's when things started to go south.. they break the backs of the average Americans to make that money and think they did it all themselves.. ha.. what a joke!!
America wasn't built on that 1% buddy.. America Was built on the MIDDLE CLASS
Quote:
Back to that $400K CEO example. If you are a high performance person going 100% day in and day out and have all of the tools to maneuver a multi billion dollar company (Doctor / MD; MBA; Harvard Grad; top 1/8 of 1% brain power) you better be making a lot more than $400K. If you think that is expensive, you have no clue. Worth $1xx million??? Of course not. But it's not my business unless I am a stock holder. That is the beauty of our system. It's far from perfect.
i don't have a problem with that ACCEPT when people have to DIE so that they could have that money to pay that CEO his salary..
Televisions, cars.. othing thigns like that are not LIFE AND DEATH.. HEALTHCARE IS.. and when ONE CEO is making $124M a year in income.. and many can not afford the HIGH PREMIUMS of insurance..INCLUDING COMPANIES in the US.. THERE IS A HUGE PROBLEM!!
Quote:
One thing is for certain, I want the government as far away from running a business as possible. you give them WAY too much credit. I've observed how they run Medicare, SS, the Post Office, the Military (waste) etc. They are positively THE most pathetic people to run 1/6 of our entire health care system.
Great.. then you can purchase your private insurance plan.. and those of us who do not fear the government can purchase the government option. You want 30% of your premiums to pay for bull****.. then you go right ahead. Your perorgative. This health care reform Obama has been pushing doesn't stop that one bit!
Quote:
With all do respect, you are too close to the problem to be subjective. And any life guard; a drowning person will drown the life guard to stay alive. Sorry...
With all due respect..you are too removed from the problem to be objective. No one is drowning you to get health care.. that is a ridiculous, silly and outrageous analogy..
Have it your way.. the more and more people that become uninsured..the more and more expensive it will become for you....far more expensive in the long run than it will if the doors were opened to all of us paying into the system to get out of the system. The problem is, you are not thinking long term.. are only thinking of yourself in the moment.. and NOT in the direction that HC is giong .
you are cutting your nose off to spite your face. Sad thing is you think you are doing yourself a favor. HOwever, the jokes on you.. ....
No good reform will equal the numbers of uninsured growing higher and higher. That happens.. more and more losses in uncompensated care that will be supplemented by tax dollars at a far higher price than reform.. oh.. and higher and more inflated prices to make up the losses. That will equal higher and higher premiums...
Why do you think salaries have increased a t 2.5% while HC has increased at 12%.. how long do you think that could last before YOU are in the water drowning as well
You are making assumptions. If I go down, then 95% of the people around me will have failed before me. I have contingency plans. I take personal responsibility to the fullest.
No offense but if I am in your shoes, then that probably meant that I didn't do my personal best. That was not meant to be personal; I'm telling it like it is. I don't blame others for where I am. If I am a betting man, your economic problems are deeper than diabetes.
The day I was born I was terminal. We all are.
I would like to help people. I would. But I'm paying $12K after paying a $4700 deductible. I refuse to pay more if unless I have to (in the form of taxes). I care about you equally as much as my Rwanda example. But I care about my family more. Get mad at me for being honest.
I get the sense that you think you figured out the way to get healthcare for cheap. Fix the CEO pay, go medicare style, buy generic drugs, etc. You tackled a small part of the formula and are willing to allow our stupid government to control 1/6 of our economy so you don't drown in red ink.
I say fix it other ways but the "compassion" in ignorant business minded people want to open the governments wallet. They will point to other wastes like the stupid war in Iraq or CEO pay to rationalize why it is a better to waste money their way. If someone like me agrees the war was a waste and that Bush was an idiot, it takes out their steam.
We need to agree to disagree.
you have a contigency plan..
rEally..
You lose your job tomorrow.. and you lose your insurance..
or you lose your income tomorrow and you can't make your insurance premiums.
you lose your insurance.
Woopss. get sick before you can financially recover to get more insurance.
Let's say it's cancer.
any idea how much cancer drugs cost? Look it up... you'd **** yourself...
HOw much "cushion" you got there? How much equity, cash you have that you'll exhaust before you run out..
Never mind that while you're sick you can't work.. that chemo is making you **** up a small intestine.. not to mention the lethargy.. you couldn't hold a job if you really tried...
Uh oh.. no insurance.. try to get insurance again.. yeah.. good luck with that.. LOL..
You stil lwant to preach about personal responsibility. Man you are truly nieve to think that you are immune...LOL.. wow.. it's also a very truly arrogant attitude..
Only other contingency plan is to just lay down and die. Are you prepared to do that? Because that is against human nature..
but let's not say it's you.. maybe you are.. but what about your kid..
what if all the "planning" and "contingencies" you THINK you have still leaves you in no mans land.. and it can happen. What then?
Please.. again.. what a nieve attitude.. sometimes those with the most arrogance have hte hardest to fall.. you think you have it all together. you think you were smarter than everyone else and you sit there and point a finger and say 'oh it's your own fault you're here.. you didn't dothe right things" then find that while you did "all the right things" you STILL end up in the ditch end of it...
Let's pray that with that attitude life doesn't try and teach you a lesson it seems you need to learn (because you think you're so smart and therefore are so immune)
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I never said that your appointments were frivolous. I said budget curves are one of the Laws of economics. If it is cheaper, people use it more. And that is why the state of MA had a lot more people going to the doctor. It should be common sense that the demand will go up. If I was at the helm, I'd put in some pretty hefty deductibles. At least an event won't bankrupt someone. For me, that would be a goal of any reform to fix that problem without opening up the spiket. In summary, you point to examples why you think a budget curve is invalad (people won't' use health care more). Sorry you are dead wrong.
I used the example to show you the irony. Most people cannot handle the truth.
That is why a cheap brand bottle is wine is expensive (400x mark-up) in a restaurant. You don't see the analogy?? I KNOW that healthcare can cost Mega thousands for a short stay. I get that. But don't focus on the Aspirin thinking you figured out why it's so expensive (big greedy CEO's, politicians that are paid off, etc etc). In actuality, you are talking about the inequities that are real but that isn't the bulk of the budget problems. The talking points are easier to understand when you point to a greedy CEO. But you are not getting the real problem.
They will point to other wastes like the stupid war in Iraq or CEO pay to rationalize why it is a better to waste money their way. If someone like me agrees the war was a waste and that Bush was an idiot, it takes out their steam.
