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Old 09-16-2009, 06:12 PM
 
Location: Hoboken
19,891 posts, read 16,272,470 times
Reputation: 3123

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dwatted Wabbit View Post
The Postals have a 99%+ accuracy rate for deliveries.

I agree with your premise.

The #1 no brainer poster child for inefficiency and corruption is the US Congress.
OK now that we have dispatched the crazy notion that the post office was privatized it is time to take this on.

The USPS is $7 billion in the hole I would hope that they could at least get the right letter to the right person for all the money we are pumping into them. You assume that a private company could not match that accuracy rate, that is quite an assumption.

As anyone who has been to the post office surely knows as good as their delivery efficiency may be is as bad as their customer service can be.

I think the $7 billion deficit speaks volumes about their efficiency.
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Old 09-16-2009, 06:30 PM
 
69,372 posts, read 55,346,365 times
Reputation: 9358
Quote:
Originally Posted by shorebaby View Post
Talk about making things up as you go along. I suggest you take up your desent with the US Supreme Court.

"Indeed, in 2004, the U.S. Supreme Court ruled in a unanimous decision that the USPS was not a government-owned corporation, and therefore could not be sued under the Sherman Antitrust Act.[16"

Look my friend please name one person or entity, just one, that is not part of the government that owns even a little bit of the USPS.

By the way even your links refered to it as part of the government, they had a government lawyer and there is this.

"Federal law allows some lawsuits against the federal government, but there are exceptions, and the Postal Service argued that Mrs. Dolan's was blocked by one of them -- barring claims due to the "loss, miscarriage, or negligent transmission of letters or postal matter.""

The USPS was not privatized, I think it is time you recognized that fact.
The Supreme Court ruling determined if the USPS can be sued based upon their "monopoly", they ruled they can be.. And as we all know, you cant sue the government..

I think the US Supreme Court, and the USPS has more knowledge on the topic than you do, and if you want to ignore the fact that the Postal Reorganization Act of 1971, makes the USPS and INDEPENDENT establishment branch, and the laws written since 1971 separates the pension liabilities from the taxpayers, allows the usps to enter into independent contracts, to be sued, to setup pension funds, healthcare benefits etc, all which USED to be liabilities of the taxpayers.

YOU CANT SUE THE GOVERNMENT, you can sue the USPS. They are seperate, not the same, again INDEPENDENT, and the taxpayers have not given money to the post office in YEARS.

I dont need to name who owns the USPS, the USPS owns themself. PERIOD, and they are regulated by the government and managed by individuals that are put into place by politicians. Similiar to the United Way, or the Red Cross, no one owns them either..

When the post office wants to redo the terms of their shipping methods, such as the recent removal of "bulk printed matter", they had no one to answer to but themself. Prior to the "privatilization", they needed Congressional approval to make changes.
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Old 09-16-2009, 07:33 PM
 
Location: Hoboken
19,891 posts, read 16,272,470 times
Reputation: 3123
Quote:
Originally Posted by pghquest View Post
The Supreme Court ruling determined if the USPS can be sued based upon their "monopoly", they ruled they can be.. And as we all know, you cant sue the government..

I think the US Supreme Court, and the USPS has more knowledge on the topic than you do, and if you want to ignore the fact that the Postal Reorganization Act of 1971, makes the USPS and INDEPENDENT establishment branch, and the laws written since 1971 separates the pension liabilities from the taxpayers, allows the usps to enter into independent contracts, to be sued, to setup pension funds, healthcare benefits etc, all which USED to be liabilities of the taxpayers.

YOU CANT SUE THE GOVERNMENT, you can sue the USPS. They are seperate, not the same, again INDEPENDENT, and the taxpayers have not given money to the post office in YEARS.

I dont need to name who owns the USPS, the USPS owns themself. PERIOD, and they are regulated by the government and managed by individuals that are put into place by politicians. Similiar to the United Way, or the Red Cross, no one owns them either..

When the post office wants to redo the terms of their shipping methods, such as the recent removal of "bulk printed matter", they had no one to answer to but themself. Prior to the "privatilization", they needed Congressional approval to make changes.
You are flat out wrong look at your links again. They specifically say the USPS is part of the Federal Gov.

From your link

"Federal law allows some lawsuits against the federal government, but there are exceptions, and the Postal Service argued that Mrs. Dolan's was blocked by one of them -- barring claims due to the "loss, miscarriage, or negligent transmission of letters or postal matter.""

The above sentence talks about the USPS in the context of the federal government.

By the way The programs you mentioned are charities, not businesses. Politicians have zero to do with these organizations.

Last edited by shorebaby; 09-16-2009 at 08:11 PM..
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Old 09-16-2009, 08:43 PM
 
184 posts, read 442,005 times
Reputation: 89
Quote:
Originally Posted by pghquest View Post
Actually they are not in the red and havent been for some time.
Post office $2.8 billion in the red
Quote:
Originally Posted by pghquest View Post
They also have not received any money from Congress since 1982.
They receive money from Congress every year, including this one. Around $96 million is budgeted annually by Congress for the "Postal Service Fund," mainly to cover the costs of mail for people in the army to vote and mail for the blind, but also for "reconciliation adjustments on the basis of estimated mail volume for prior fiscal years."
Search Results - THOMAS (Library of Congress)


Quote:
Originally Posted by pghquest View Post
They are seperate, not the same, again INDEPENDENT, and the taxpayers have not given money to the post office in YEARS.
The Board of Governors directs the exercise of the powers of the Postal Service, directs and controls its expenditures, reviews its practices, conducts long-range planning, and sets policies on all postal matters.

And just who are these Governors???

The Board of Governors of the U.S. Postal Service includes nine Governors who are appointed by the President with the advice and consent of the Senate.

USPS.com even says "Named the Most Trusted Government Agency five consecutive years by the Ponemon Institute, the Postal Service has annual revenue of $75 billion and delivers nearly half the world’s mail."

What is your interest in arguing this? Do you work for the USPS? While you may be right that they are technically not a "government corporation" it is very clear that they are not truly independent from the government as UPS and FedEx are. They receive federal funding, are granted a monopoly by the government, have government regulations in place to limit their competition, and by their own admission are a "government agency."
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Old 09-16-2009, 09:33 PM
 
69,372 posts, read 55,346,365 times
Reputation: 9358
Quote:
Originally Posted by straightfromatown View Post
Post office $2.8 billion in the red


They receive money from Congress every year, including this one. Around $96 million is budgeted annually by Congress for the "Postal Service Fund," mainly to cover the costs of mail for people in the army to vote and mail for the blind, but also for "reconciliation adjustments on the basis of estimated mail volume for prior fiscal years."
Search Results - THOMAS (Library of Congress)




The Board of Governors directs the exercise of the powers of the Postal Service, directs and controls its expenditures, reviews its practices, conducts long-range planning, and sets policies on all postal matters.

And just who are these Governors???

The Board of Governors of the U.S. Postal Service includes nine Governors who are appointed by the President with the advice and consent of the Senate.

USPS.com even says "Named the Most Trusted Government Agency five consecutive years by the Ponemon Institute, the Postal Service has annual revenue of $75 billion and delivers nearly half the world’s mail."

What is your interest in arguing this? Do you work for the USPS? While you may be right that they are technically not a "government corporation" it is very clear that they are not truly independent from the government as UPS and FedEx are. They receive federal funding, are granted a monopoly by the government, have government regulations in place to limit their competition, and by their own admission are a "government agency."
Your link clearly says

Funds provided to the Postal Service in the Payment to the Postal Service Fund include appropriations for revenue forgone in providing free mail for the blind and people with disabilities, for overseas absentee voting, and for reconciliation adjustments on the basis of estimated mail volume for prior fiscal years.

The government is paying for POSTAGE

And the reason there is a $2.8B red, is ONLY because the federal government mandated that the post office takes $37.6 billion in future liabilitys off the taxpayers book over a 10 year period...

$37.6 Billion / 10 years to fund the account = $3.76 liabilities yearly - $2.8 loss = a $.96 Billion surplus.

And yes, again, no one is disputing that the president appoints the USPS Board of Governors, and no one is disputing that they could privatize even further, but anyone who knows anything about the subject knows darn well that the USPS is indeed now a legal "entity", and that legal entity itself is seperate from the US Government.

My interst? I lease properties to the post office, I know darn well whats on the leases and know any legal ramifications end at the USPS. No one can reach further and sue the govt in the even the USPS messes up. They are completely different entities, (for the sake of accuracy, the govt itself is not a legal entity)..
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Old 09-16-2009, 09:34 PM
 
69,372 posts, read 55,346,365 times
Reputation: 9358
Quote:
Originally Posted by shorebaby View Post
You are flat out wrong look at your links again. They specifically say the USPS is part of the Federal Gov.

From your link

"Federal law allows some lawsuits against the federal government, but there are exceptions, and the Postal Service argued that Mrs. Dolan's was blocked by one of them -- barring claims due to the "loss, miscarriage, or negligent transmission of letters or postal matter.""

The above sentence talks about the USPS in the context of the federal government.

By the way The programs you mentioned are charities, not businesses. Politicians have zero to do with these organizations.
Federal law allows lawsuits against the federal government IF the federal government consents to be sued, unlike the post office, where you can sue at will...
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Old 09-16-2009, 10:50 PM
 
184 posts, read 442,005 times
Reputation: 89
Quote:
Originally Posted by pghquest View Post
Your link clearly says
Funds provided to the Postal Service in the Payment to the Postal Service Fund include appropriations for revenue forgone in providing free mail for the blind and people with disabilities, for overseas absentee voting, and for reconciliation adjustments on the basis of estimated mail volume for prior fiscal years.
The government is paying for POSTAGE
I understand what the funds are for, I even included it in my post. I was not trying to hide their intended use. I just wanted to clear it up because you said:
Quote:
Originally Posted by pghquest View Post
They also have not received any money from Congress since 1982.
They do in fact do receive nearly $100 million dollars from Congress every year. I understand that the funds are intended for special non-profit purposes, but the vague "reconciliation adjustments" part leaves me skeptical. This also assumes that all of the money is properly spent on these specific areas, and once again, I am skeptical.

Quote:
Originally Posted by pghquest View Post
And the reason there is a $2.8B red, is ONLY because the federal government mandated that the post office takes $37.6 billion in future liabilitys off the taxpayers book over a 10 year period...
I believe you are talking about the pension plan that they have to continue to fund. By future liabilities do you mean that taxpayers would be responsible for funding this if the USPS can not? I am not very familiar with that situation and really hope that is not the case.

From what I have read, they were in the red last year because they had to contribute a bunch to the pension plan. I assume that they were involved in the planning of this pension plan, so this speaks to the inability of USPS management to properly forecast their own budget. Further, if they are truly independent they should be able to revise it at any time without seeking approval from Congress.

Quote:
Originally Posted by pghquest View Post
No one can reach further and sue the govt in the even the USPS messes up. They are completely different entities, (for the sake of accuracy, the govt itself is not a legal entity)..
This is not entirely correct. For the most part, you can sue the USPS, but they get government supported exemptions that truly independent entities can only dream of. The USPS can and has used the defense of sovereign immunity in court to get lawsuits against them dismissed. Here are a couple examples:

Although plaintiff fails to specify the legal basis for his claim, he appears to allege a
claim for negligent handling of the United States mail
. Thus, plaintiff’s claim against the USPS
is a tort claim governed by the Federal Tort Claims Act (“FTCA”), 28 USC § 2671 et seq.
Under the FTCA, a tort claim filed against the USPS is properly treated as a tort claim against
the United States
. Anderson v. United States Postal Serv., 761 F2d 527, 528 (9th Cir 1985)
(citation omitted). Accordingly, this court granted defendants’ motion to substitute the United
States in place of the USPS
(docket # 20).

http://www.websupp.org/data/DOR/3:07...039-22-DOR.pdf


USPS’s motion essentially pleads sovereign immunity in this case, and seeks to dismiss Count V of the Third-Party
Complaint. As the Court is satisfied that USPS has not waived its sovereign immunity, the -2- Motion will be granted for lack of subject matter jurisdiction, and Count V of the Third-Party
Complaint will be dismissed with prejudice

http://www.paed.uscourts.gov/documen...s/07D0716P.pdf
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Old 09-17-2009, 09:00 AM
 
Location: Washington DC
5,915 posts, read 7,241,482 times
Reputation: 948
Quote:
Originally Posted by shorebaby View Post
So it will go to 46 or 48¢.
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Old 09-17-2009, 01:54 PM
 
Location: Hoboken
19,891 posts, read 16,272,470 times
Reputation: 3123
Quote:
Originally Posted by rlchurch View Post
So it will go to 46 or 48¢.
Try 3 bucks.
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Old 09-17-2009, 01:58 PM
 
Location: Washington DC
5,915 posts, read 7,241,482 times
Reputation: 948
Quote:
Originally Posted by shorebaby View Post
Try 3 bucks.
LOL you should probably stick to other subjects than math. The USPS is a $75 Billion/ year operation a 10% deficit requires a 10% increase in revenue. 44¢ * 10% = 4.4¢
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