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Old 11-04-2013, 12:33 AM
 
2,241 posts, read 2,672,622 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lucario View Post
God, are you naive.
I laud the strength and survival and hard work of my ancestors as well and the fact that the legacy still carries on. I'm with you on that.

As for naïveté, pot meet kettle. It's obvious you couldn't see that I was being somewhat facetious and at the same time trying to provide another aspect of view or way or lens through which such a matter could be looked at.

Ppl point fingers at others while many also point back at you or the others etc.

But my gosh, you are naïve. I'm not being naïve.

Why did the Arabs and Europeans and other groups seek to colonize and promulgate massive slave trading and racism and oppression on Africans and the African diaspora? Amazing how all of this seeks to divide us still to this day. *Sigh*

 
Old 11-04-2013, 12:36 AM
 
2,241 posts, read 2,672,622 times
Reputation: 424
Quote:
Originally Posted by calipoppy View Post
However, those same people do not have any control over how OTHERS label them. Again, they can call themselves whatever they wish but if other people see them as "black" then they are "black" particularly in the US.
The black police need to be stopped in their traffic immediately. Black people pick and choose when to accept an individual as black. You're either the one enforcing or thrusting blackness onto someone or you're telling one that they aren't black enough and excluding them from blackness when that person may choose to identify as such. Can't have it both ways.
 
Old 11-04-2013, 12:49 AM
 
Location: La lune et les étoiles
17,611 posts, read 19,031,172 times
Reputation: 18918
Quote:
Originally Posted by MelismaticEchoes View Post
The black police need to be stopped in their traffic immediately. Black people pick and choose when to accept an individual as black. You're either the one enforcing or thrusting blackness onto someone or you're telling one that they aren't black enough and excluding them from blackness when that person may choose to identify as such. Can't have it both ways.
You are projecting onto my comment something that was neither stated nor implied.

Again, people are free to call themselves whatever they wish but others will classify based on what they see. So what?
 
Old 11-04-2013, 08:26 PM
 
Location: Caribbean
7,556 posts, read 2,427,412 times
Reputation: 2738
Quote:
Originally Posted by calipoppy View Post
This is ONE article which attempts to connect the rejection of the label "black" with its roots in slavery. It falls short because most of the people who reject the label of "black" also do not embrace the label "Afro-(insert name of Latin American country here). Even the darkest Dominicans would NEVER call themselves Afro-Dominican.

Obviously, the reason that they are pushing back is because the connotation of "black" means of more pure West African ancestry...and therefore less European. However, there is not the same push back on a more offensive word "mulatto" which literally means "mule" (the offspring of the inferior donkey and superior horse). "Mulatto" implies heavy European ancestry so that term is deemed to be more complimentary.
Perhaps watch the video on the side. The Spanish is very basic. It doesn't fall short because you made a blanket statement that simply does not apply to everyone. There are people who prefer to refer to themselves as "black" and those who use "African descent." For some, it doesn't matter at all.

Why would Dominicans need to call themselves Afro-Dominican when their heritage is already understood? I could see in certain places where there are significant numbers of different ethnic groups, but most Dominicans have the same ethnic mixture (with more or less depending on the person). So there is no need...
 
Old 11-07-2013, 12:12 PM
 
7,437 posts, read 5,925,572 times
Reputation: 3799
Quote:
Originally Posted by caribdoll View Post
It's not as though Dominicans do not generally acknowledge their African heritage because the term "mulatto" encompasses both heritages.


A conversation with a Dominican cable installation guy. He simultaneously boasted about having some distant SLAVE heritage, while claiming to be Indio. He made sure to say that it was distant, which it definitely was if he referenced it as "slave" and not as African. This after talking most lengthily about being his Spanish and French ancestry (which didnt seem any more visible than his African).

I told him that a Cuban friend of mine, who is less mulato looking thanhim (he looks Arab), self identifies as mulato. I was thinking that he might accept that as an alternate description for him, as he is clearly mixed.

He looked quite shocked and pained and told me that I was a mulato, not him. I am probably equivalent to Denzil Washington, but with more negroid facial features. I think that to most people I am black.


I became immediately aware of how the racial politics of Cuba is very different from the DR, even though both have a legacy of Spanish colonialism. Cuba and maybe Panama seem unique in latin America.

Dominicans do have issues with being connected to "blackness". The term Indio is preferred over mulato as mulato implies part black. Indio is more neutral (no they are not claiming to be Taino as some think, though its quite clear that many do have some of that, though less than Puerto Ricans). Apparently a black Dominican is mulato (unless very dark and African looking), because "black" is something that Haitians are. I have bene told that to a Dominican I am mulato oscuro.

The issue with blackness is very much tied up with the whole issue of Haiti and its tragic history and the fact that Haitians are "invading" the DR, because it is a failed state. I do not think that any issue of racial identity and Dominicans can be discussed without reference to this. Surprising to mnay I will argue that the DR helped Haiti more than any one else after their earthquake. Even though it is also a fairly poor country.

I have found Puerto Ricans to be more comfortable around "blackness". Maybe because the dont have the whole "trauma" of Haiti to deal with. I have noticed that when the DR has shows for touristic purposes it features music and dance that is closer to the Euro end of the Afro Euro creole continuum. PR seems quite happy to display its bomba, which is quite AfroCaribbean in scope.

Having said all of that no analysis about Dominicans is complete without acknowledging that this debate has generated more discussion among them, and younger Dominicans seem quite happy to embrace the "black" side of their heritage. Not just to acknowledge that it exists. Dont know if this is mainly among the Cocolos, who have long been "black and proud".

The current Miss DR UNiverse is proud in her natural hairstyle. Even though this is quite controversial for some Dominicans, a few who have even ventured to state that she is more appropriate for Haiti than the DR. Clearly she doesnt care.
 
Old 11-07-2013, 12:39 PM
 
8,100 posts, read 4,996,952 times
Reputation: 1578
Quote:
Originally Posted by caribny View Post

I have found Puerto Ricans to be more comfortable around "blackness". Maybe because the dont have the whole "trauma" of Haiti to deal with. I have noticed that when the DR has shows for touristic purposes it features music and dance that is closer to the Euro end of the Afro Euro creole continuum. PR seems quite happy to display its bomba, which is quite AfroCaribbean in scope.
Bull....all the same music...

Merengue and Salsa...period. And Dominicans go in with the Bachata as well...as do PR's but Dominicans have brought it to the forefront.

Quote:
Having said all of that no analysis about Dominicans is complete without acknowledging that this debate has generated more discussion among them, and younger Dominicans seem quite happy to embrace the "black" side of their heritage. Not just to acknowledge that it exists. Dont know if this is mainly among the Cocolos, who have long been "black and proud".
Have you ever called a "black and proud" Dominican a "cocolo"?? If you have...even coming from a black man... I find it hard to believe it ended well.
 
Old 11-07-2013, 01:19 PM
 
Location: Caribbean
7,556 posts, read 2,427,412 times
Reputation: 2738
Quote:
Originally Posted by caribny View Post
A conversation with a Dominican cable installation guy. He simultaneously boasted about having some distant SLAVE heritage, while claiming to be Indio. He made sure to say that it was distant, which it definitely was if he referenced it as "slave" and not as African. This after talking most lengthily about being his Spanish and French ancestry (which didnt seem any more visible than his African).

I told him that a Cuban friend of mine, who is less mulato looking thanhim (he looks Arab), self identifies as mulato. I was thinking that he might accept that as an alternate description for him, as he is clearly mixed.

He looked quite shocked and pained and told me that I was a mulato, not him. I am probably equivalent to Denzil Washington, but with more negroid facial features. I think that to most people I am black.


I became immediately aware of how the racial politics of Cuba is very different from the DR, even though both have a legacy of Spanish colonialism. Cuba and maybe Panama seem unique in latin America.

Dominicans do have issues with being connected to "blackness". The term Indio is preferred over mulato as mulato implies part black. Indio is more neutral (no they are not claiming to be Taino as some think, though its quite clear that many do have some of that, though less than Puerto Ricans). Apparently a black Dominican is mulato (unless very dark and African looking), because "black" is something that Haitians are. I have bene told that to a Dominican I am mulato oscuro.

The issue with blackness is very much tied up with the whole issue of Haiti and its tragic history and the fact that Haitians are "invading" the DR, because it is a failed state. I do not think that any issue of racial identity and Dominicans can be discussed without reference to this. Surprising to mnay I will argue that the DR helped Haiti more than any one else after their earthquake. Even though it is also a fairly poor country.

I have found Puerto Ricans to be more comfortable around "blackness". Maybe because the dont have the whole "trauma" of Haiti to deal with. I have noticed that when the DR has shows for touristic purposes it features music and dance that is closer to the Euro end of the Afro Euro creole continuum. PR seems quite happy to display its bomba, which is quite AfroCaribbean in scope.

Having said all of that no analysis about Dominicans is complete without acknowledging that this debate has generated more discussion among them, and younger Dominicans seem quite happy to embrace the "black" side of their heritage. Not just to acknowledge that it exists. Dont know if this is mainly among the Cocolos, who have long been "black and proud".

The current Miss DR UNiverse is proud in her natural hairstyle. Even though this is quite controversial for some Dominicans, a few who have even ventured to state that she is more appropriate for Haiti than the DR. Clearly she doesnt care.
Thank you for this post. I am aware of Dominican history, particularly with Haiti, and that issues with African heritage exist there, as in other parts of the diaspora. No one is saying that there are not issues there at all, as issues certainly exist. However, the people do not have to identify as black when they are overall a mixed nation. It is far more important to work to erase issues with color and features associated with African heritage & promote more appreciation for African roots in the DR and across the diaspora. Additionally, it should be done without downplaying the extensive Spanish/European heritage that also exists in DR. The strong Spanish heritage is undeniable in the DR, especially in Santo Domingo. Not to mention the importance of recognizing the Tainos who first occupied the land.

Do you read Spanish? If so, what do you think about the article that I included to Calipoppy? Just showing a different perspective.

Regarding the use of slave as opposed to African, that does not surprise me. That type of thing is not uncommon. There are a number people right here in the U.S. that emphasize being "black" and turn their faces up at any discussion of Africa. They make it clear that they are far from Africa, emphasizing that nothing about them really reflects Africa other than their appearance. Neither does the emphasis on being "indio" come as any surprise either.

On the other hand, I have experienced shows for touristic purposes featuring music and dance representative of the Afro-Euro creole continuum. Hell, step off the plane at Punta Cana, you are not going to find the whitest Dominican playing you music. One could certainly argue the reasons for that, but if the goal was to reflect as little African heritage as possible...that would likely be different.

And yes, I am aware of how much the DR helped Haiti and also its desire to increase involvement with Caricom and other Caribbean nations in general. And even with the recent poor action against Haitian descendants, a number of Dominicans have expressed their disagreement with the legislation.
 
Old 11-07-2013, 01:45 PM
 
Location: Center of the universe
24,757 posts, read 33,950,596 times
Reputation: 11780
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hot_Handz View Post
Bull....all the same music...
It's the same music............if you consider country and metal the same. Or country and Aussie pop the same.


Quote:
Merengue and Salsa...period. And Dominicans go in with the Bachata as well...as do PR's but Dominicans have brought it to the forefront.
Merengue and salsa come from different antecedents; though they share the same African and European creolized roots, salsa evolved from Afro-Cuban and Puerto Rican forms (and jazz), while merengue is pure Quisqueya (the Haitian and the Dominican sides) in origin.


Quote:
Have you ever called a "black and proud" Dominican a "cocolo"?? If you have...even coming from a black man... I find it hard to believe it ended well.
The cocolos are a distinct ethnic group descended from English-, French- and Dutch-speaking West Indian people who began immigrating to San Pedro de Macoris around the turn of the last century to work in the sugar industry. People like baseball greats George Bell and Alfredo Griffin are the epitome of cocolo. If I could I would embed a commercial touting San Pedro de Macoris which includes cocolo culture (as well as the UNIA building, Bell and Griffin).
 
Old 11-07-2013, 01:56 PM
 
8,100 posts, read 4,996,952 times
Reputation: 1578
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lucario View Post
It's the same music............if you consider country and metal the same. Or country and Aussie pop the same.
"All the same" meaning...they both listen to predominantly Salsa, Merengue and Bachata! I'm not comparing Latin Fusion to Synth Pop...just saying the backbone of music culture are largely the same.

The afro-cuban sound is not widely seen throughout PR music as it was in the 60's and 70's....while salsa and merengue haven't gone anywhere.

Think about it....how many modern Ralfi Pagans or Joe Bataans do you see today? None.

Anybody crossing over is going to be in the mold of Marc Anthony types...




Quote:
The cocolos are a distinct ethnic group descended from English-, French- and Dutch-speaking West Indian people who began immigrating to San Pedro de Macoris around the turn of the last century to work in the sugar industry. People like baseball greats George Bell and Alfredo Griffin are the epitome of cocolo. If I could I would embed a commercial touting San Pedro de Macoris which includes cocolo culture (as well as the UNIA building, Bell and Griffin).
As I said....call any black Dominican a cocolo....see how well it flies. It is a pejorative term not an affectionate one.
 
Old 11-07-2013, 01:58 PM
 
Location: Center of the universe
24,757 posts, read 33,950,596 times
Reputation: 11780
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hot_Handz View Post
"All the same" meaning...they both listen to predominantly Salsa, Merengue and Bachata! I'm not comparing Latin Fusion to Synth Pop...just saying the backbone of music culture are largely the same.






As I said....call any black Dominican a cocolo....see how well it flies. It is a pejorative term not an affectionate one.
I know it is by origin a pejorative term. I do know a few Dominicans and some Puerto Ricans who have flipped it though.
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