In your opinion, should African Americans forgive America for slavery? (wages, education)

[Gilpin Girl]

Originally Posted by ovcatto

. . . While I don't pretend to speak for a majority of African Americans much less all of them, I would feel rather confident in saying that it isn't a matter of forgiving or forgetting, rather than a simple mater of it is what is is. It happened, their are some linger affects, but by in large we are moving on.

My observation tells me that the American black community is NOT moving on. They are imprisoned by their own resentment. At the same time they are perpetrating the same hate on each other and themselves that was and still is to a lesser degree being perpetrated against them by other races. When you forgive someone you set yourself free NOT the perpetrator. By forgiving someone you are not condoning what they did; you're saying "I will no longer be consumed with the pain and anger of your actions."

It's heartbreaking to see the damage African Americans are doing to their own sense of self worth. It seems as if the African American community is striving to be recognized and identified as the most victimized group in history. And to prove it they are living the lives of victims. By and large, they don't seem to have any interest in being their own heroes anymore. It breaks my heart because I know as a white I can't do a d*mn thing to help. That change in mind set has to come from the African American community itself.

[TriMT7]

Originally Posted by fatmancomics

We're not talking about oppression from conquering nations though. We're talking about slavery in a system that promised, from the beginning, that it would protect the minority from the majority (America, the entity) but whose PEOPLE manipulated or just plain ignored said system in order to continue to oppress a minority.

America, like Rome, originally offered and promised (political) "equality" for its male citizens of certain birth... Anglo/North Western European to begin with. Not economic equality. Women and blacks, followed by Chinese were excluded originally. I do not fault these men, because I do not view people of the past through present day lenses, and only through what was acceptable to their contemporaries.

Had America been "born" 100 years later than it was, it would not have inherited its original sin of chattel slavery.

Originally Posted by fatmancomics

This still doesn't excuse the past or, worse yet, the present. Things can only be "tempered" for so long until the oppressed finally fight back.

And by fighting back through the Civil Rights era, blacks have achieved full political equality. To get them over the hurdle of economic and social equality, however, a lot of cultural issues will have to be addressed, because it is not "race" that divides most Americans, but "cultural" distance. This goes for all ethnicities and races.

If you expect complete social equality, you've got a long way to go. Those with the situational power and privilege will always have control to advance those they wish. At a macro level, whites control and will control for the foreseeable future a lot of the nation's business, political, and economic framework. At a micro level, however, you see that when put in a position of power, minorities will often display the same preferential behavior "for their own kind" that whites display.

Be it Jews (ever wonder why 3% of the population represents 20 - 30% of the legal, business and entertainment fields in this country?), be it Haitians (you can always tell a fast food restaurant here in South Florida is managed by a Haitian when all of the employees are Haitian), or Mexicans (no blacks on the yard team owned and operated by my Cental American lawn guy)... to Cubans in Miami (Spanish necessary to apply for the job). ALL populations do it. It's just that white Americans have more opportunity to do it, so it hurts minorities more.

On a subsequent post you talk about being uncomfortable at a white diner in backwoods Alabama or Mississippi. Well, I have my own experienced being a white guy brought by black friends to "black" establishments --- such as barber shops and restaurants.... VERY uncomfortable.... staring, comments, etc... jut as you described.

Originally Posted by fatmancomics

I highly doubt that segregation as a law would have been practiced in this country were it not for slavery since it was the resentment towards former slaves that led to Jim Crow laws to begin with.

And what of South Africa and Apartheid? But, maybe you are right, however, that without slavery, there might be no segregation. There'd be a minute amount of blacks.

Originally Posted by fatmancomics

America the entity (as in the ideal of this nation as defined by its laws) has done a bang up job but the American PEOPLE have not done a good job until recently and, even then, it's only been thanks to a very vocal minority that we've had so much (overdue) change in so little time.

The Americans have dealt with an unprecedented history, racial and cultural mixture within its teaming borders, and have dealt pretty well considering. I mean, how long for white people to even accept other white people of different religions or nationality? What other nation of this size can claim the same? China? Japan? Russia? Pakistan? India? Forget about it. Maybe Brazil... even there, however, best not to be on the darker scale of skin tone.

Originally Posted by fatmancomics

You just answered your own question. Looking back and compairing how things were to how things are is what helps us move forward because there are too many things that still haven't changed and we can only realize that by looking back.

That's different than dwelling on slavery. What caused your cancer is not as important as how you're going to treat it.

Originally Posted by fatmancomics

As far as the "acting white" questions, let's not forget that it was white Americans who expected black people to behave a certain way and lynched them for being "too uppity" whenever they acted any way other than subserviant and ignorant. You can't create a sub culture through oppression and then be surprised when that subculture evolves and only keeps the negative aspects.

If it's a "sub culture," it's a relatively new phenomena.
Sorry, but the majority of the "reject white American culture" phenomena came about AFTER and DURING the Civil Rights Era. How come those who WERE subjected to the "don't get educated" message yearned for education and opportunities to better themselves, but those that came during and after reject the same?

Instead of saying, "sorry you can't create a sub culture..." the REAL "sorry" belongs to those who think you CAN have a subculture with all the negative aspects and EXPECT to be accepted by the majority. Either you want the majority's approval (and thus, equal job and educational opportunities that come with being able to read, speak proper English, and have all the skills necessary to be an asset to a company), or you do not. Can't have it both ways.

Originally Posted by fatmancomics

What does this have to do with anything?

If you've been following the thread, the person to whom my posts were directed made mention of 40 acres and a mule.

[fatmancomics]

Originally Posted by TriMT7

America, like Rome, originally offered and promised (political) "equality" for its male citizens of certain birth... Anglo/North Western European to begin with. Not economic equality. Women and blacks, followed by Chinese were excluded originally. I do not fault these men, because I do not view people of the past through present day lenses, and only through what was acceptable to their contemporaries.

Had America been "born" 100 years later than it was, it would not have inherited its original sin of chattel slavery.

You do realize that half of the constitutional convention wanted to outlaw slavery, right? Did you know that Washington freed his slaves in his will? How about the fact that Benjamin Franklin organized an abolitionist group?

I do fault these men and I do look at people through present day lenses because, during every era, there have been those who stand up and make a change and those who compromise. No matter how much you dress it up, hypocricy is an ugly thing.

And by fighting back through the Civil Rights era, blacks have achieved full political equality. To get them over the hurdle of economic and social equality, however, a lot of cultural issues will have to be addressed, because it is not "race" that divides most Americans, but "cultural" distance. This goes for all ethnicities and races.

Can't argue with that.

If you expect complete social equality, you've got a long way to go. Those with the situational power and privilege will always have control to advance those they wish. At a macro level, whites control and will control for the foreseeable future a lot of the nation's business, political, and economic framework. At a micro level, however, you see that when put in a position of power, minorities will often display the same preferential behavior "for their own kind" that whites display.

Be it Jews (ever wonder why 3% of the population represents 20 - 30% of the legal, business and entertainment fields in this country?), be it Haitians (you can always tell a fast food restaurant here in South Florida is managed by a Haitian when all of the employees are Haitian), or Mexicans (no blacks on the yard team owned and operated by my Cental American lawn guy)... to Cubans in Miami (Spanish necessary to apply for the job). ALL populations do it. It's just that white Americans have more opportunity to do it, so it hurts minorities more.

Again, can't argue with you there.

On a subsequent post you talk about being uncomfortable at a white diner in backwoods Alabama or Mississippi. Well, I have my own experienced being a white guy brought by black friends to "black" establishments --- such as barber shops and restaurants.... VERY uncomfortable.... staring, comments, etc... jut as you described.

Ah, but when have you heard of a white man being lynched by a minority for stepping into a diner in this country's history?

And what of South Africa and Apartheid? But, maybe you are right, however, that without slavery, there might be no segregation. There'd be a minute amount of blacks.

Yeah, maybe you're right and there still would have been segregation without slavery but, seeing as how apartheid was practiced by a white minority and it took away the rights of a black majority, this doesn't put white people in any better light. All it does is prove that, wherever they go, no matter how small their group, they feel entitled to conquer, subdue and oppress. Manifest destiny sound familiar?

The Americans have dealt with an unprecedented history, racial and cultural mixture within its teaming borders, and have dealt pretty well considering. I mean, how long for white people to even accept other white people of different religions or nationality? What other nation of this size can claim the same? China? Japan? Russia? Pakistan? India? Forget about it. Maybe Brazil... even there, however, best not to be on the darker scale of skin tone.

No argument here. It's true that, as long as you are white, other white people will eventually accept you here in America despite your cultural differences. Anyone with a darker hue will have their culture incorporated into the prevailing culture (like the music and food that black people invented but white America exploited) but not their people.

That's different than dwelling on slavery. What caused your cancer is not as important as how you're going to treat it.

It is when the cause is still there and can bring back the cancer.

If it's a "sub culture," it's a relatively new phenomena.
Sorry, but the majority of the "reject white American culture" phenomena came about AFTER and DURING the Civil Rights Era. How come those who WERE subjected to the "don't get educated" message yearned for education and opportunities to better themselves, but those that came during and after reject the same?

I'll give you the after but not the during. Get one thing straight: Civil Rights leaders, at the height of the movement, were encouraging their communities to educate themselves and to fend for themselves. Rejecting white America was the only way to be self reliant. It's the compromises that came about after those leaders were assasinated that derailed the movement.

Instead of saying, "sorry you can't create a sub culture..." the REAL "sorry" belongs to those who think you CAN have a subculture with all the negative aspects and EXPECT to be accepted by the majority. Either you want the majority's approval (and thus, equal job and educational opportunities that come with being able to read, speak proper English, and have all the skills necessary to be an asset to a company), or you do not. Can't have it both ways.

Again, agreed and this delves into what black people (and all minorities that are viewed upon negatively) have to do in order to excell. Approval, however is not necessary as is evident by the fact that everything that black people have contributed that is seen as a "negative" by middle aged white society is embraced by white youth all the way from the blues to rock and roll to hip hop to calling each other the "n" word.

[JordanJP]

I think they should forgive, completely.

It is high time for African-Americans to stop holding current generations (let's say, post-1940) responsible for something that was ended nearly 150 years ago. Much of the problems they see as being the fault of others are actually their own problems. They seem to perpetuate the whole thing to a ridiculous degree, even today.

I'm not saying forget, I'm just saying it's time to get over it and work for the betterment of their own community and American society at large.

[B-ham 34]

Best answer was the majority answer. It happens, it's life

[B-ham 34]

Originally Posted by Redrover

Since there is no one left alive who ever held a slave, pray tell why would they owe an apology? Those were different times and to apply standards from one era to those of another is absurd. If your great, great grandfather robbed banks for a living, should you be going to jail for his crime?

I just said that about the jews and the Indians with this reparation thing that got going.

[B-ham 34]

Originally Posted by REA88

NO!

The 'African-American's' who would do the forgiving have never BEEN SLAVES. And the white's who they would be forgiving HAVE NEVER HELD SLAVES.

What a petty country we live in.

Indeed and i agree! Can you believe we still grieve Indians and pay reparation for something 300 years old, and those jews why thats another thing.

[B-ham 34]

Originally Posted by Cav Scout wife

Higher education is the answer to that, not to mention volunteer work in the community, and potentially moving somewhere that is less biased.




How is that the fault of the average citizen? When you have people like Sharpton and Jackson PROMOTING racism at each and every turn, what are people supposed to think? Not to mention the **** poor "role models" on BET and the average rapper.



It is the PARENT'S fault that their children bring weapons to school, and the children's fault that they CHOOSE to miss school, fail, or drop out. Why waste time, energy, and resources on those that choose to ignore teachings, and choose not to apply themselves?




I don't call myself or any of my friends or family ****, heeb, redskin, or *****; why do some blacks do this with the "n word", then get upset when others do it as well? If you want someone to stop calling you something, you need to stop it first.




That goes for everyone, not just one specific race or religion.


If the black community wants to better themselves, they need to stop putting fame before education, stop letting the a**holes like Sharpton and Jackson take the lead on race relations, and improve education at home. I can't complain if my neighbour thinks I am a lazy slob cause my yard is trashed, if it is indeed trashy and I choose not to change it. I have to change it first, before my neighbour's perception changes.

I totally agree with everything you just said and that BET is just terrible, why not watch anti christ heavy metal, why watch inspirational hip hop video, it's nonsense!

[Brandonrchrd]

WE ARE AMERICA......the only thing us blacks need to do is THANK the slaves, and the people after them for doing what they did. As I've said before this country would be not as prosperous as it is if slavery had never happened. I'm proud of every aspect of American history, and if I had a chance to change it and leave out slavery I wouldn't. People need to either realize the greatness of it, or get over it, I can't even believe people have the nerve to even feel like they should be reprimanded or apologized to YOU DIDN'T TO SPIT!!!! MAN I WISH I CULD CUSS ON HERE LOL. Seriously though, nobody alive today has no idea what it was like to be dehumanized, beaten, sold, and treated worse than an animal. They would have loved to go through all of the racism that followed much later, and it would have been dream to them to be poor. The nerve of some americans these days ESPECIALLY some black folks, it gets really embarrassing, but it's cool though. Having the freedom to share knowledge is beautiful.

[Quick Enough]

I find it amusing those looking for an apology, never ask Africa for one. No demonstrations, no boycotts etc. You know, the blacks who sold their brothers in the first place.