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What happens when someone "voluntarily" decides they don't want to pay SS or taxes for Medicare (and medicaid) out of their paycheck. Heck,they don't want to pay SS either.. after all tehy want to keep the money in their own pockets right?
Yep - exactly what I am talking about.
The individual worker would have the right, the freedom, to decide if they (the worker) wants to pay into the "system". And, they (again, the worker) would know that if they don't pay into the system, that the government would not be obligated to, in any form, provide them any income whatsoever, at the time they should decide to retire.
I have no opinion at all on other countries healthcare nor will I. But since you bring it up I'll comment;
The healthcare system in Europe was never "free" in the sense of choice. They have lost nothing because they (Europeans) are "Ruled" by a socialist government.(I'm sure they have leeches in there system too)
The problem, is that you think Europeans HAVE no "choice". Right there shows your lack of knowledge on European forms of government AND healthcare. And I was simply pointing out what your previous statements eluded too. Connect the dots here for a second.
BTW.. UK - a country with Socialized medicine, is NOT a socialistic nation anymore than we are. Actually they have the SAME economy as us.. a MIXED economy of both socialistic policies and principles mixed with Free market principles.
The opposition to a "socialized" system of health care associate those that want it and those that are fighting for it as people who simply want to live off the government. YOur own posting even used the word "dependent" on... it it.
Yes, Europeans have leeches in theirs system too. Leeches exist in ALL systems.. even our OWN!
THAT right there is the point . The argument from the other side is that "socialized" medicine will CREATE leeches and "dependents".
You are right about one thing.. European socialized medicine is NOT FREE. Another argument always used against such a system here; the misconception that people are getting something for nothing.. but only a select few (the ones who argue against it seem to feel THEY will be personally paying for everyone). I'm not saying that is how YOU feel, but that is the arguments against a soclialized system that I hear constantly on these boards.
The stereo typing of groups will never end if we don't start here; the comment "the other-side" would imply all who debate against the healthcare bill consider this comment to be true
Quote:
but then again since you brought it up, who wants something for nothing? Who would expect to get a free ride at the expense of others? So, what would be wrong with pointing out a freeloader except offending the freeloader.
Some people need the temporary use of government programs out there to assist in hard times. Some people, more than ment to, abuse the system to a point that the people who support them get tired of being used. So why is it exceptable to abuse a government system and overload those who bare the load? What is wrong with independence? Who else would you expect to treat you better than yourself? Surely not the government.
The something for nothing comes from those that accuse people like myself of wanting FREE health care. AS if IF we develop a system similar that those of European nations, that I will be a non contributor and will be receiving said health care but paying nothing. [/quote]
Adapting a socialized system of health care isn't going to suddenly find the entire population or a majority of the population sitting on their laurels doing nothing and surviving off the government. THat notion is completely ridiculous. AS a matter of fact, the people you COULD accuse of doing that very thing are people who care little about this argument. Why? Because they already ARE living off the system, so they have no need for something to pass that will allow them to live off the government and not take care of themselves. Those people get TRUE free medical care with medicaid. They also get subsidized housing and food stamps. NOw, mind you I do not feel that all those on those programs ARE leeching off the system. But I'm not nieve and know that there are some that do not care to move themselves up in life to get off the government tit, so to speak. I do get that there are people out there that work but do not make a living wage. This country is expensive, after all.
There is NOTHING wrong with independence and taking care of oneself AT ALL.However, the reality is that in regards to health care, it's very difficult to meet basic needs AND get the health care you need when the cost has reached well beyond the reach of the AVERAGE Americans. Even those that are of good means would end up losing everything, if not it all, if they became seriously ill and had no insurance to take care of the problem.
I'm just tired of the argument from the "other side" that those that are and want a socialized system are looking to leech, as if those on the "other side" will and are going to be the only ones paying for it for the ones on this side of the argument. That's absurd and completely irrelevent.
Those living in European countries ARE taking care of themselves while enjoying the benefits of a program that THEY CONTRIBUTE TO, taking care of not only them, but the rest of their fellow countrymen. AND they HAVE choices within their system, contrary to Republican and "other side" rhetoric on the matter.
Here's an article on what will happen next to reconcile the two bills.
Congress will bypass their normal procedures and exclude Republicans.
Dem from Senate, Dem from House and WH will meet to reconcile bill.
No committees formed.
Then they will vote on it so Obama can announce at his State of the Union.
Dems intend to bypass GOP on health compromise - Yahoo! News (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100104/ap_on_bi_ge/us_health_care_overhaul - broken link)
Here's an article on what will happen next to reconcile the two bills.
Congress will bypass their normal procedures and exclude Republicans.
Dem from Senate, Dem from House and WH will meet to reconcile bill.
No committees formed.
Then they will vote on it so Obama can announce at his State of the Union.
Dems intend to bypass GOP on health compromise - Yahoo! News (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100104/ap_on_bi_ge/us_health_care_overhaul - broken link)
And I will be glad if they do. By doing that they can avoid all the delaying tactics the Repubs would undoubtedly employ. The nearly year long debate about this should be over. There is little more that can be said. We know the GOP, in unison, will oppose anything. The bills have been wrangled, massaged and even degraded by the Dems. It is time to get this first step toward reform done. The politicing and influencing is over. Get over it!
And I will be glad if they do. By doing that they can avoid all the delaying tactics the Repubs would undoubtedly employ. The nearly year long debate about this should be over. There is little more that can be said. We know the GOP, in unison, will oppose anything. The bills have been wrangled, massaged and even degraded by the Dems. It is time to get this first step toward reform done. The politicing and influencing is over. Get over it!
I'm not a Republican. Reid, Pelosi and Obama will reconcile and all they need is 60 votes to do this.
Sorry..I will not "get over it". I disagree with the bill; it's not reform but an insurance subsidy that we cannot afford. It puts money in the hands of big pharma and insurance companies.
The individual worker would have the right, the freedom, to decide if they (the worker) wants to pay into the "system". And, they (again, the worker) would know that if they don't pay into the system, that the government would not be obligated to, in any form, provide them any income whatsoever, at the time they should decide to retire.
It's dishonest and and at best disingenuous of you to leave out the rest of that post.. illustrating exactly what is most likely to occur in your scenario.
You would be okay living in a country where a majority of the elderly population would then be left homeless and destitute because they "elected" not to pay into the system?
Hmm.. perhaps I'll send them to your street to panhandle and be homeless in your neighborhoods; perhaps then you wouldn't feel so happy about having given those people the "option" to "opt out".
Let's say this country was your version of what you seem to think America should be, and all these baby boomers who had invested their money in various areas for retirement (and subsequently lost a big chunk of their retirement) had opted out of SS because, after all they were wisely invested. But suddenly , through no real fault of their own, they find their "nest egg" is , well gone or decimated . What happens to them GD. After all, they "opted" out of SS.
It's so easy for someone like yourself sitting on your perch to say it should be "voluntary". Good for you you have a strong hold on "good investments" and you have a job (or several careers based on your post) as well as your physician wife to have a significant enough income to not need SS or medicare.
hell you already circumvented the system , so did you NOT then have a choice.. obviously you did , as you do not participate in such a system. But then you fall into the category that I said an exception should be made for; ie: you have enough wealth to sustain you in your retirement age.
Guess what.. you are the exception NOT the rule. Good for you. But leave the system alone as it is. It's for the general public's well being as individuals AND as a nation as a whole.
I for one do not want to find myself living in a country where individuals are then forced to live in third world situations. It would never happen. This country would never allow that to happen. Instead those that made the "choice" to opt out, will then receive aid from the government in which the "elected" not to contribute a thing.
I'm not a Republican. Reid, Pelosi and Obama will reconcile and all they need is 60 votes to do this.
Sorry..I will not "get over it". I disagree with the bill; it's not reform but an insurance subsidy that we cannot afford. It puts money in the hands of big pharma and insurance companies.
I am a little unclear as to why you would expect otherwise, no matter who put a bill together. The special interest influence is a fact of life in Congress. Until that changes, if it ever does, we have little choice but to accept very small steps.
Well TM it's going to happen anyway. If fines are cheaper than the premiums then why not just pay the fine and then continue to get that aid from the government ?
I am a little unclear as to why you would expect otherwise, no matter who put a bill together. The special interest influence is a fact of life in Congress. Until that changes, if it ever does, we have little choice but to accept very small steps.
You can choose to accept it but I can voice my distain for the way our Congress acts regardless of who is in power.
That's not how our Congress is supposed to work. Apathy from voters, acceptance of "that's the way it is" just lets them get away with more and more each time.
I am a little unclear as to why you would expect otherwise, no matter who put a bill together. The special interest influence is a fact of life in Congress. Until that changes, if it ever does, we have little choice but to accept very small steps.
I blame the GOP and the "moderate" blue dog democrats for this.
Why?
Because they are the idiots that started the "death panel" crap and all the propoganda against a health care bill that WAS what the AMerican public needed.. the one that Obama was pushing over the summer. It was comprehensive, strong, had a public option, a national insurance exchange and strong consumer protections from health insurance. It was an amazing piece of legislation that was subsequently killed by rumors of the government wanting to "kill granny" AND ALL THAT NONSENSE.
I mostly blame the GOP.
Because no matter WHAT was put on the table, they were going to kill .. because it is being done under a Democratic President. Because a DEMOCRATIC president and majority government was giving the AMERICAN PEOPEL what they had been longing for and subsequently voted for this past election. THAT is dangerous to the Republican party and their ability to win seats and athe Presidency in 2012.
Rather than embracing something so sorely needed, they rejected it completely .. not because of it's merits or lack thereof, but simply out of political chess playing. They and their "tv glam" constituens (uh hum.. FAUX NEWS) instead played a game by throwing in buzz words that put FEAR in the minds of the short sited and gullible American public, so much so that it killed the bill on the spot and made it a pariah.
As a result, they had to go back to the drawing board, of which , again NO Republican wanted to get behinds.
So then what. The moderates in the Democratic party saw an opportunity for thier own self interest and independents then had the "power" and leverage toget what they wanted in their own self interest (and that of those that line their pockets). So now we are left with a bill that killed the public option, killed the medicare buy in AND subsequently weakened the consumer protections.
Only good news is that a compromise that is being discussed in turn for leaving out the public option is for allowing insurance to be purchased ACROSS state lines on a NATIONAL pool level. THAT is EXCELLENT and could possibly save this bill from being considered superficial and weak, as that could significantly alleviate the "pressure" within the system that causes the high prices.
I for one, however, am happy that reform is being passed. I only hope that it is later strengthened and further amended for the PUBLIC good rather than the Private good.
But again.. what we are getting is a result of the GOP determined to kill ANYTHING that Obama is trying to accomplish. They never had any intention of "crossing" party lines (the GOP) and working with the President, nor accepting his outreach. They are ultimately determined to undermine his Presidency to try and guarantee their seat in 2012.
I for one am not fooled by the BS. IF.. IF they had cooperated and worked WITH reform rather than so vehemently against it.. I may be willing to listen to what the Repubs have to say and be more open to them.. but they have further pushed me away with their crap.
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