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Old 11-03-2009, 08:35 AM
 
Location: Philadelphia, PA
3,388 posts, read 3,891,215 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by samyn on the green View Post
The prerequisite for sex is male sexual arousal. If there is no out of control passion, there is no sexual arousal and then there is no rape. How could seemingly well educated people gloss over the most basic of logic and then spread their idiocy among the masses?

Your whole indoctrination on these issues is an outgrowth of Reich and his idea of political control via sexual revolution. At every turn sexual revolution and the subversion of moral law is protected. These studies you quote are a farce often like the farcical studies of Kinsey which much of this line of thought is based on. Have you not read Reich and his sexual revolution?
Samyn, I respectfully suggest that your theories are outdated; while you are perfectly entitled to your opinion please recognize that it is such.

My "indoctrination" comes from 5 years of graduate study in clinical psychology. What is your indoctrination based on?

I have read Reich's Sexual Revolution (1945); I respectfully suggest you read the APA or AMA stances on sexual assaults. Over the past 60 years, study after study after study has found that the MOTIVE for rape is a desire for power or control over another person, not a desire for sex or "out of control passion." If you would like a link to a summary of studies on the etiology of rape, I'd be happy to provide some. BTW, Kinsey's research is not really relevant to sexual assault research.

I can't force you to value science, nor do I have any desire to, but to impugn hundreds and hundreds of studies you haven't read and then refer to people who have read them as spreading "idiocy"? The way science works is that studies are done that either add support or do not add support to theories - it is ever changing and evolving. Quite a bit of work has been done on this topic since 1945. I suggest you read up on some of it before name calling at people whose profession requires them to know about the issue.

To say that the incidence of rape is directly linked to the sexual revolution is a stretch at best and disingenuous at worst. If you would like to discuss this further without insulting me, I'd be happy to.

Last edited by eastwesteastagain; 11-03-2009 at 08:37 AM.. Reason: afterthought
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Old 11-03-2009, 08:38 AM
 
Location: San Diego North County
4,803 posts, read 8,723,256 times
Reputation: 3022
Quote:
Originally Posted by JMadison View Post
This is patented BS.

Testosterone was driving this. One has to be aroused to have an erection.

A side effect of testosterone is aggression. Ever heard of "'roid rage"???

It was violent, criminal, *sexual* aggression, and that's all there is too it.

Definitely there was no *love* involved. But definitely sex.

No doubt this trait has survived in humans because the woman doesn't have to be happy about being impregnated, she just has to be impregnated for the trait to pass on.

So from a survival of the fittest point of view, the trait continues on.

Solution? Sterilize the little b-st-rds and throw them in jail.
See, it's archaic, misogynistic attitudes like this which continue to perpetuate the misconception that rape is somehow a sexually motivated crime.

I got news for ya buddy. There's not a psychologist, psychiatrist, therapist, or rape crisis counselor to be found that will take your side on this one.

This incident, in my opinion, serves as a reminder that we live in a society which increasingly accepts violence against women as the normative rather than the abnormal. Violence directed at women whether through television, video games (one series in particular requires the participant to beat a prostitute to death in order to advance), as well as misogynistic music videos and song lyrics has increasingly become viewed as ingrained into our culture.

Our society, as a whole, has become indifferent and apathetic regarding those mediums which aggrandize these types of assault against women and girls. It rewards those who advocate it in entertainment--voting with the almighty dollar for more and more, and these "artists" are happy to comply.

Is it any wonder that we're raising a generation of young men who believe that this is the way that women are supposed to be treated? So if indeed women are supposed to be abased and degraded, why would any of the bystanders felt as if they were doing anything wrong? Why would you involve authorities when this girl was clearly getting exactly what she wanted (c'mon now, you know that secretly, all women want it...) and exactly what she deserved?

While one cannot dismiss personal responsibility, the fact that any one of these boys/men could have walked away and notified authorities at any point during this poor girl's ordeal and they didn't, speaks volumes. It should leave us wondering why and how any one of these young men could have thought that the violent beating and rape that this 15 year old child was forced to endure was somehow okay.

For you to state unequivocally, that this violent attack against this child was somehow sexually motivated, rather than incited by a violent, misogynistic attitude toward women in general, minimizes this vicious act of rape, reducing it to some sort of hormonal brouhaha.

You should familiarize yourself with the impetus behind violence against women. It's never about sex. It's about power and it's about control. Penetration is merely one of the weapons used to gain that power.

http://www.ncjrs.gov/pdffiles/172837.pdf

An excellent article if you care to track it down. It is available through most academic databases, such as JSTOR, "Rape: power, anger, and sexuality" - Groth, et al. A snippet:

Quote:
Accounts from both offenders and victims of what occurs during a rape suggest that issues of power, anger, and sexuality are important in understanding the rapist's behavior. All three issues seem to operate in every rape, but the proportion varies and one issue seems to dominate in each instance. Accounts from 133 offenders and 92 victims were ranked for the dominant issue and found that the offenses could be categorized as power rape (sexuality used primarily to express power) or anger rape (use of sexuality to express anger). There were no rapes in which sex was the dominant issue; sexuality was always in the service of other, nonsexual needs.
Date Rape: A Power Trip

Rape is about power, control and anger, not sex

Survival of the fittest?

Do the women in your life a favor and educate yourself rather than perpetuating millennia old stereotypes that trivialize a truly deleterious and violent crmie.
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Old 11-03-2009, 08:45 AM
 
507 posts, read 676,167 times
Reputation: 364
Quote:
Originally Posted by samyn on the green View Post
The prerequisite for sex is male sexual arousal. If there is no out of control passion, there is no sexual arousal and then there is no rape. How could seemingly well educated people gloss over the most basic of logic and then spread their idiocy among the masses?
I think you are grossly oversimplifying the connection between sex and rape. Yes. You are correct that there needs to be arousal by one party in order for sex to take place. But the question is, what was the reason behind of that arousal? I think arousal can take place in many forms. For instance, I think people can be aroused the a whole person, a certain attribute of that person, or the idea of that person. When a rapist sees his victim, is he specifically aroused by the woman (or in some cases man) as a sexual being with equal agency, or is he aroused by the power that he has over another person. In the case of rape, I think it's the latter. If the rapist simply wanted sex, he or she could go to the street and pick up a prostitute, or go to the bar at 2am and pick someone up. It's easy. But when a that same person goes into the bar, slips a drug into an unsuspecting person's drink, and rapes a person who is basically unconscious, the arousal is coming from a different source.
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Old 11-03-2009, 08:47 AM
 
Location: Geneva, IL
12,980 posts, read 14,506,033 times
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With all due respect, just because a few of you are armchair philosophers, and now apparently armchair psychologists, to completely demean and disrespect everything eastwesteastagain says on the subject is a bit much. Sorry, but I'm going with the person who has studied this for years, and has worked it over people who for I know get their information out of Reader's Digest. Everyone's an expert these days.

I do think the issue of rape elicits different reactions depending on how far removed you are from it. That's not to say most rational, feeling individuals are not horrified by it. But if it has touched you or your family, I think perhaps your feelings are different. And I'm generalizing greatly here, but I also think for most woman it is one of their ultimate fears, probably almost as much as being murdered. I think most women are well aware that they are not stronger than men, and that combined with use of force such as weapons, restraints, or chemicals reduce a woman's ability to fight back, making her even more vulnerable. Even though this is a crime that is committed against men too, I don't think men respond to rape in such a visceral, emotional way, but more rage. When I hear stories such as these I feel incredibly sad, and sorry for the victim, and every time, probably fearful for myself too that that could be me, then have feeleings of disgust for the perpetrators. Men I think tend to respond in a much more primal, protective way, kill the perps (never a bad idea IMO), but the level of fear I don't think is there.
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Old 11-03-2009, 09:03 AM
 
507 posts, read 676,167 times
Reputation: 364
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zimbochick View Post
With all due respect, just because a few of you are armchair philosophers, and now apparently armchair psychologists, to completely demean and disrespect everything eastwesteastagain says on the subject is a bit much. Sorry, but I'm going with the person who has studied this for years, and has worked it over people who for I know get their information out of Reader's Digest. Everyone's an expert these days.

I do think the issue of rape elicits different reactions depending on how far removed you are from it. That's not to say most rational, feeling individuals are not horrified by it. But if it has touched you or your family, I think perhaps your feelings are different. And I'm generalizing greatly here, but I also think for most woman it is one of their ultimate fears, probably almost as much as being murdered. I think most women are well aware that they are not stronger than men, and that combined with use of force such as weapons, restraints, or chemicals reduce a woman's ability to fight back, making her even more vulnerable. Even though this is a crime that is committed against men too, I don't think men respond to rape in such a visceral, emotional way, but more rage. When I hear stories such as these I feel incredibly sad, and sorry for the victim, and every time, probably fearful for myself too that that could be me, then have feeleings of disgust for the perpetrators. Men I think tend to respond in a much more primal, protective way, kill the perps (never a bad idea IMO), but the level of fear I don't think is there.
I don't think this can be said enough. Just last night, I went to an event by myself in Boston, and instead of staying there over night, I took a bus to NYC to stay at a friend's apartment. The bus put me off in Chinatown around 3am, and while I was told I'd probably be safe, and that everything would be ok (it was, and I am thankful for that), I still had to walk 6 blocks in Chinatown alone, do several transfers on the subway alone, and walk to my friend's place at a not so ideal time by myself. Each time I passed a guy on the street a felt somewhat fearful, when I was in the subway car with only men, I felt relieved when another woman got on, and when I heard something fall near my friend's apartment, I immediately jumped, and quickly got off the dark sidewalk and walked in the middle of the street. I agree that the level of fear is probably not the same, I highly doubt that any of the men on the subway felt that they could be instantly overpowered in the way that I felt. I think the feeling you described, is most certainly there in the case of women. And while it's unfortunate, it's definitely a reality.
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Old 11-03-2009, 09:07 AM
 
3,004 posts, read 3,872,465 times
Reputation: 2028
Quote:
Originally Posted by eastwesteastagain View Post
For the love of Pete, rape is about control and power via forced sex - the only thing sex has to do with it is that it is the "weapon" in the crime, so to speak. To say otherwise flies in the face of decades and decades of research and common sense.
Well OBVIOUSLY rape is about anger, power, and control. DUH! No one has said differently. My goodness! But it is ALSO ABOUT SEX. Not normal sexual desires (again, obviously), but sexual impulses must be present in order for this medium for anger, power, and control to exist.

To deny otherwise is just to be stupid.

In other words, rapists are not JUST violent sadists, they are also people with a pathological sexuality. Somehow sexual pleasure has gotten tied up with violent impulses in their sick and evil minds.

I find that on so many topics, many people are so afraid of saying anything that might be misconstrued that it leads to adopting stances which are absurd. We are afraid to discuss female stupidity because someone might accuse us of blaming the victim. We are afraid to say that there is a moral component to abortion for fear someone will equate our political position with that of the most extreme anti-abortion proponents. And here, we are afraid to merely acknowledge that sexual impulses are PART of the rape scenario, for fear that we will fail to see the violent and sadistic aspects of this crime. Enough already! Let's just be reasonable.

Last edited by chattypatty; 11-03-2009 at 09:17 AM..
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Old 11-03-2009, 09:13 AM
 
Location: New York
1,999 posts, read 4,978,849 times
Reputation: 2035
I am not contesting that rape has an element of power associated with it. My only point is how the establishment has denied the primary role of sexual passion at the base of rape.

These studies are far from infallible. The landmark study on sex-the study which spawned all others was been proven to be a farce- the Kinsey study was conducted on mostly street people and other degenerate homosexuals. In a way all studies that came after it were rooted in shifty soil.
Quote:
Originally Posted by eastwesteastagain View Post
Samyn, I respectfully suggest that your theories are outdated; while you are perfectly entitled to your opinion please recognize that it is such.

My "indoctrination" comes from 5 years of graduate study in clinical psychology. What is your indoctrination based on?

I have read Reich's Sexual Revolution (1945); I respectfully suggest you read the APA or AMA stances on sexual assaults. Over the past 60 years, study after study after study has found that the MOTIVE for rape is a desire for power or control over another person, not a desire for sex or "out of control passion." If you would like a link to a summary of studies on the etiology of rape, I'd be happy to provide some. BTW, Kinsey's research is not really relevant to sexual assault research.

I can't force you to value science, nor do I have any desire to, but to impugn hundreds and hundreds of studies you haven't read and then refer to people who have read them as spreading "idiocy"? The way science works is that studies are done that either add support or do not add support to theories - it is ever changing and evolving. Quite a bit of work has been done on this topic since 1945. I suggest you read up on some of it before name calling at people whose profession requires them to know about the issue.

To say that the incidence of rape is directly linked to the sexual revolution is a stretch at best and disingenuous at worst. If you would like to discuss this further without insulting me, I'd be happy to.
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Old 11-03-2009, 10:35 AM
 
Location: Philadelphia, PA
3,388 posts, read 3,891,215 times
Reputation: 2410
Quote:
Originally Posted by samyn on the green View Post
I am not contesting that rape has an element of power associated with it. My only point is how the establishment has denied the primary role of sexual passion at the base of rape.

These studies are far from infallible. The landmark study on sex-the study which spawned all others was been proven to be a farce- the Kinsey study was conducted on mostly street people and other degenerate homosexuals. In a way all studies that came after it were rooted in shifty soil.
The Kinsey report was a more sociological study on sexual habits. The Kinsey study absolutely has some methodological issues, I agree, but it is not at all the basis from which rape/sexual assault studies derive. If it were I would say so. If you don't believe me, look it up. To say that all studies that came after the Kinsey report are suspect, when research on rape/sexual assault is not based on the Kinsey report, is faulty reasoning.

I also agree that scientific studies are not infallible - I am not claiming that they are. What I am claiming is that a large database of scientific studies on the motivations for rape have found that the primary variable is control and power. Sexual passion is not as you claim "at the base of rape." However, there is evidence that a small subset of rapists act to establish sexual prowess, so you do have a point. But to say that sexual passion is the basis of rape discounts other verified motivations (which account for the bulk of rape cases) such as the desire to punish/humiliate, to control through fear, to gain revenge, etc.

It's not my opinion, nor is it the opinion of the establishment. It is as close as one can come to a scientifically verified fact.



EDIT: Also, although the Kinsey report is not relevant to rape/sexual assault research, I wanted to correct your misperception about the study sample:

Sample:
5300 white males and 5940 white females provided almost all the data, with the majority of participants being younger white adults with some college education. (This part of the sample is referred to as the "College Sample.") Kinsey tried to compensate for volunteer bias in his sample by interviewing 100% of the individuals available in a given organization or group. Approximately 25% of the sex histories came from these 100% groups. (Kinsey did not believe a random sample was possible.)

Last edited by eastwesteastagain; 11-03-2009 at 10:49 AM.. Reason: afterthought
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Old 11-03-2009, 10:39 AM
 
Location: Philadelphia, PA
3,388 posts, read 3,891,215 times
Reputation: 2410
Quote:
Originally Posted by chattypatty View Post
Well OBVIOUSLY rape is about anger, power, and control. DUH! No one has said differently. My goodness! But it is ALSO ABOUT SEX. Not normal sexual desires (again, obviously), but sexual impulses must be present in order for this medium for anger, power, and control to exist.

To deny otherwise is just to be stupid.

In other words, rapists are not JUST violent sadists, they are also people with a pathological sexuality. Somehow sexual pleasure has gotten tied up with violent impulses in their sick and evil minds.

I find that on so many topics, many people are so afraid of saying anything that might be misconstrued that it leads to adopting stances which are absurd. We are afraid to discuss female stupidity because someone might accuse us of blaming the victim. We are afraid to say that there is a moral component to abortion for fear someone will equate our political position with that of the most extreme anti-abortion proponents. And here, we are afraid to merely acknowledge that sexual impulses are PART of the rape scenario, for fear that we will fail to see the violent and sadistic aspects of this crime. Enough already! Let's just be reasonable.
Please see my last two posts to Samyn. Please do not imply that I am stupid.

Re: your second set of points about being overly PC - I dislike tiptoeing around fact due to political correctness also. That is not what I've done in my last two posts. I have corrected misinformation about sexual passion/ gratification being the primary motivator of rape.

I agree, let's be reasonable. Let's try to stick to the facts and not pretend that our opinions are anything but that.
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Old 11-03-2009, 11:44 AM
 
Location: Miami
537 posts, read 291,147 times
Reputation: 171
Quote:
Originally Posted by migee View Post
Where are the outspoken activists?

Where is the broad media coverage on television?

Let's hear more info about who these guys were...

Whoops!....We wouldn't want to stigmatize any group...would we?

Last year our Attorney General came out claiming that we are dishonest about our discussion of race relations in this country. Where the hell is he now?...Shouldn't this be investigated as a bias crime?

I'm sorry to say that this country is going to become more ethnically and racially divided than ever before. And, it is because of dishonesty.
Agree.
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