Agree or disagree: American society would be better off if women stayed out of the workplace (unemployed, Mexican)

[Redshadowz]

Originally Posted by 17th Street

I understand what you are trying to say, but it honestly it irritates me when people go into that "must have mother and father" spiel. As a person who experienced the loss of a father through death at a very young age, I often encourage people to remember that in some cases, people simply do not have a choice in the family structure in which their children are raised. Not to sound corny, but I really do believe that it takes a village. As long as children have positive role models and a strong support system, they can be raised in a variety of different ways and still turn out well.

Also, I don't know how up to date you are on current music, but love and romance really have not gone anywhere.

Family is the most important thing in life. Having a strong family unit, where you have positive male and female role models is very important. It definitely doesn't help a kids confidence if their mother and father aren't the ones raising them. But grandparents and even uncles/aunts can help, and raise great kids.

To me, the reason it requires two incomes to "make it" now is because there are almost always two incomes in every family these days. If no women worked then everyone would seem to do just fine with a single income. Women working has not increased prosperity and happiness for America. It has only caused more social problems, where kids don't have adequate supervision and guidance. And those kids raise their kids to reflect these "new values".

Any family with children where both parents work outside the home, especially those families that spend very little time with their kids, are doing their children a great disservice. To me, its societies fault for pushing people to be materialistic and self-centered. Like you have no worth as a person unless you have a big house and a nice car. The community should be more appreciative of great parenting and sacrifice.

[noela]

Originally Posted by th3vault

I have no problems with women working.

I do have a problem with feminists forcing artificial equality through lower standards for the same job.

we agree some more. I think there are strands of feminism that are way too much victim-oriented, which doesn't help our self-perception as really useful individuals. Feminism, in my opinion, is a useful tool when it comes to enforce objective, equal work/social standards for both men and women. Unfortunately, some strands of it (not all of them!) refuse to move a step forward nowadays (many countries still need to be victim-oriented, truly, but not the Western World... ). I think feminism should focus a little more on self-criticism and self-improvement and much less on theoretical criticism of patriarchal society and practical measures to make things easier for women by default. The idea shouldn't be: I demand that you adapt the job to my capacities... The idea should be: I demand of myself to augment my capacities, to be more competitive and apt and to stop fearing rejection.

I think women's self-esteem and fight for equality could use more demands from society. Certainly not less.

Regarding the topic question, I think that all countries are improved when women stay in the workplace alongside men.

[Bideshi]

Women have always worked since the beginning of time, either inside or outside of the home (there are many examples in the Bible). What has changed in our society is that two incomes are now considered necessary to maintain a "normal" living standard. The greatest harm from this is that there is no longer a parent at home to raise children. " Latch-key" children are raised by school teachers, day-care workers, TV and each other. We have several succeeding generations of people who were not taught right from wrong, and the result is obvious throughout our deteriorating society. I know I will get blasted from all sides for this, but I am absolutely convinced that this is the sad truth. Traditional roles for men and women were for good reasons. The more developing nations emulate us, the more they come to have the same problems we have. Youth no longer respect elders, teachers, or other authority. All of this comes from how children are raised.

[noela]

Originally Posted by Bideshi

Women have always worked since the beginning of time, either inside or outside of the home. What has changed in our society is that two incomes are considered necessary to maintain a "normal" living standard. The greatest harm from this is that there is no longer a parent at home to raise children. Children are raised by school teachers, day-care workers, TV and each other. We have several succeeding generations of people who were not taught right from wrong, and the result is obvious throughout our deteriorating society. I know I will get blasted from all sides for this, but I am absolutely convinced that this is the sad truth. Traditional roles for men and women were for good reasons.

But do you think traditional roles apply without exception or would it be possible (and likely) that at least some men should be better at taking care of the kids and the house and at least some women should be better working outside the home? I mean, different individuals different abilities (despite natural/social -whatever- gender tendencies) or would this be universal rule?

(I'm just asking, I've no intention to blast you at all)

[Redshadowz]

Originally Posted by noela

But do you think traditional roles apply without exception or would it be possible (and likely) that at least some men should be better at taking care of the kids and the house and at least some women should be better working outside the home? I mean, different individuals different abilities (despite natural/social -whatever- gender tendencies) or would this be universal rule?

(I'm just asking, I've no intention to blast you at all)

Traditionally women have been the home-makers for many reasons.

1) They have breasts. IE milk for their babies. Yes, we do have formula now, but there are many studies saying breast-fed babies are healthier.

2) For them to have children in the first place, they would need to get pregnant, and pregnancy means they would have to leave their jobs for a period to have their child. Since men never have to stop working, its more convenient for the man to maintain his job.

3) I think children have some instinctual connection with mothers for their general needs. And women seem to have a more instinctual natural desire to care for children.

That doesn't mean that men can't take care of kids, at least after a certain age. But, for every additional child that a family has, the woman would need to take off work at least a couple months. Which puts a huge burden on their finances.

And in the past, the women that did work usually became nurses and teachers. Those occupations allow for women to take extended leaves without really disrupting their company. Doctors and lawyers can't casually take off work for long periods of time. They have responsibilities to their patients.

I have no problem with women working, as long as they either have no children at all, or are done having children, or if they have a husband that wants to be a stay at home "dad", and a job where its acceptable for the women to take off for a couple months or more each time she has a child.

The reality is, in almost all situations its just better for the man to work and the woman to take care of the kids.

[momonkey]

Originally Posted by dcsldcd

Actually it is the illegal immigrant population that has driven down wages. It would be better if mothers could stay home but not because they hurt the workplace but for the benefit of the family. Women are just as productive as men.

Falling wages/raising prices in the 1970s were not a direct result of women entering the work force. After WWII we were the only nation in a position to manufacture anything. The rest of the world has been steadily taking from our share since the 1950s with 1975 being the last year we enjoyed a trade surplus.

Dcsldcd makes a good point. Too many workers drive wages down. Sorry Jose', but you gotta go back and fix your own country.

[Wellness]

No Mexicans drive down wages and employers willing to hire inexperienced for cheaper labor, but this only screws them back....
Pay employee's what their worth and they will stay and be loyal!

[Who?Me?!]

Originally Posted by Redshadowz

Family is the most important thing in life. Having a strong family unit, where you have positive male and female role models is very important. It definitely doesn't help a kids confidence if their mother and father aren't the ones raising them. But grandparents and even uncles/aunts can help, and raise great kids.

To me, the reason it requires two incomes to "make it" now is because there are almost always two incomes in every family these days. If no women worked then everyone would seem to do just fine with a single income. Women working has not increased prosperity and happiness for America. It has only caused more social problems, where kids don't have adequate supervision and guidance. And those kids raise their kids to reflect these "new values".



"Yes, All bad things(the economy, wars, de-regulation, Wall Street scams, jobs shipped to other countries, illegals hired by the wealthy, etc) are the fault of women...if they just would've kept their heads bowed, bred as directed, and slaved at home the world would be saved."

""Any family with children where both parents work outside the home, especially those families that spend very little time with their kids, are doing their children a great disservice. To me, its societies fault for pushing people to be materialistic and self-centered. Like you have no worth as a person unless you have a big house and a nice car. The community should be more appreciative of great parenting and sacrifice.""

To me it's pushing people to ALWAYS have kids with no regard to financial status....tell women their only roll is to pump out kids and some of them believe it.

Originally Posted by Redshadowz

Traditionally women have been the home-makers for many reasons.

1) They have breasts. IE milk for their babies. Yes, we do have formula now, but there are many studies saying breast-fed babies are healthier.""

So they should also, because they have breasts , do all the cleaning, cooking, shopping, childcare, PTA meetings, doctor's appointments, social organizing, etc. and men should become even more of a stranger to their children????

2) For them to have children in the first place, they would need to get pregnant, and pregnancy means they would have to leave their jobs for a period to have their child. Since men never have to stop working, its more convenient for the man to maintain his job.

3) I think children have some instinctual connection with mothers for their general needs. And women seem to have a more instinctual natural desire to care for children."""


And men really CAN learn...I've seen it! Men who actually KNOW they ARE a PARENT! 50% a PARENT.

That doesn't mean that men can't take care of kids, at least after a certain age. But, for every additional child that a family has, the woman would need to take off work at least a couple months. Which puts a huge burden on their finances."""

THAT is an individual scenario...some CAN afford and if they can't well....it goes back to treating women as nothing more than breeding animals.

And in the past, the women that did work usually became nurses and teachers. Those occupations allow for women to take extended leaves without really disrupting their company. Doctors and lawyers can't casually take off work for long periods of time. They have responsibilities to their patients."""


So teaching and nursing(and if you add prostitution you get the Big Three for Women from 100 years ago) are insignificant...so lowly that women should do them? Teaching is not very important? A nurse can just take off at anytime because with the nursing shortage in this country another WOMAN can work 16 hours to cover for her with no decrease in the quality of patient care???
The lower paying nursing and teaching jobs WOULD help to keep women in their place and free up IMPORTANT HIGH PAYING JOBS FOR MEN...like doctors and lawyers.....how quaint!!!

I have no problem with women working,""

OH WE ARE ALL SO RELIEVED!!!!!!YOUR approval, we desired it so!!!

"""as long as they either have no children at all, or are done having children, or if they have a husband that wants to be a stay at home "dad", and a job where its acceptable for the women to take off for a couple months or more each time she has a child.

The reality is, in almost all situations its just better for the man to work and the woman to take care of the kids.

My, my, it's the 21st century and a voice from the 19th appears in a chat room!
It's Like a "Ghost From Sexism Past"!


NOW! READ the thread on the Hero of Fort Hood!!!!!!!

[delusianne]

Originally Posted by AnUnidentifiedMale

Some argue that the women's movement has caused more problems than its been worth, even claiming that dual-income families have driven up the cost of living.

What do you think?

This is the wrong way to look at it IMO. The women's movement was necessary psychologically. But the family and as a result society suffers with no parents at home for the children, or parents distracted -- = the family, neighborhood, community, society out of balance. Prices went up (partly) because there were more double-income families able to pay more.

In the olden days -- as late as the sixties? seventies? -- an average family got by comfortably on one income.

Dont know the answer to this problem. Women arent going to stop working. Prices of houses and cars arent going to go down.

I do think the best arrangement is for the mom to be home and the dad to go out and kill the bear. But to make a difference in society it would have to be most moms staying home, not just one or two here and there.

Maybe telecommuting could have some sort of impact, though I think most of the female workforce are pink collar workers?

I dont know, it's cruel and maybe fatal. Dont blame women or the women's movement, though.

[seven of nine]

The sad thing is the thing we as women are working so hard to take care of is suffering the most.
Sick kids at school, the nest doesn't get feathered, lots of disharmony.
God forbid your husband not do housework