Is domestic abuse (toward women) tolerated more often in the western U.S.? (generation, illegal)

[tom62]

Have spent much time in Missoula, had a place a few miles east and had extended visits/part time residency since 1987.. Some local Montanans, particularly long-timers are not my cup-o-tea and found them downright coy but NEVER experienced or even witnessed behavior like(obsenities) that from adults.
I did have some local "yee-haw" s.o.b. at a self serve station between East Missoula and Bonner try like hell to get water to spray from his squeege while washing the bugs off his windshield (what was left of it anyhow) and fling it back at my motorcycle. The intent was SO obvious, he was trying to stir up trouble. Fortunately, his aim left much to be desired . I let him know (for no reason politely) to be more considerate of people around him he offered no apology-just a smug smile, aka "smerk" and continued but obviously concerned he riled a genuine hardcore. Its very rare I perpetuate the myth of the "outlaw biker" as this is a perception I wish to go away however I took a moment to make an impression on him. I would bet these types spend many a night in jail in Missoula!
I have encountered a much more seroius issue on MORE than one occasion. Abusive behavior towards women (husband to wife) and this is not hard to spot. Makes us just plain sick. . Experienced it at social gatherings(from subtle innuendo to outright condescending attitude), in the tiny town restaurant we were near and even the lady who closed our loan at the bank had facial bruises covered with makeup. Seems prevelant that men make most of the decisions out there. Some odd social behavior we encountered regularly is my wife was frequently "left out" of conversations as ALL professional business was directed to me. She often would interceed, "excuse me, but Im right over here." Usually the person would shoot a look back at me like 'arent you gonna just hit her?" Once on a guided trip into backcountry in the Bitteroots, the guide Ernie would barely acknowledge my wife and NEVER replied to anything she inquired..
I think this is just an accepted part of the culture as a male dominated, for lack of a better term. I know this doesnt exist in every home obviously, but it is a problem that exist.

[JoeJoeMan]

tom62 wrote.....

I have encountered a much more seroius issue on MORE than one occasion. Abusive behavior towards women (husband to wife) and this is not hard to spot. Makes us just plain sick. . Experienced it at social gatherings(from subtle innuendo to outright condescending attitude), in the tiny town restaurant we were near and even the lady who closed our loan at the bank had facial bruises covered with makeup. Seems prevelant that men make most of the decisions out there. Some odd social behavior we encountered regularly is my wife was frequently "left out" of conversations as ALL professional business was directed to me. She often would interceed, "excuse me, but Im right over here." Usually the person would shoot a look back at me like 'arent you gonna just hit her?" Once on a guided trip into backcountry in the Bitteroots, the guide Ernie would barely acknowledge my wife and NEVER replied to anything she inquired..
I think this is just an accepted part of the culture as a male dominated, for lack of a better term. I know this doesnt exist in every home obviously, but it is a problem that exist.

You sound like, although you may not be, a typical liberal politically correct sexist.......women are just as obusive as men if not more so. And becuase of misinformed and uneducated views such as your's they (women) get away with murder, and I mean that literally. Witnessed by more than a few cases recently in Montana, example, "I didn't mean to shoot him in the back, the gun just went off" or the one "I just stabbed him in the leg, it was his fault he bleed to death"......In each one of these cases, the women thru in usual "I did it because he obused me"......of course I'd consider the person doing the shooting or stab the real abusive one.........in either case these low lifes got off with very minimal jail time, Basically they got away doing less time for killing someone than alot of people get for doing drugs. How did our justice system get so warped..........answer: liberal attitudes like your's,

[GiftShoppeGuy]

Most times, in and around Missoula, women found with a "black eye" are usually the ones that got into it on Friday night with some other woman during a drunken brawl.....

We are a rather traditional bunch around here. Men or women, usually just gravitate toward their own gender in the social circles.... it's a perfectly normal thing.

Montana is just loaded with working wives, who work outside of the home, and who share in the resposibilities on the domestic scene, just like our men do. Our women, by their very nature, are not stupid, and for every "one" abused female here, there are "20" others that are perfectly happy to be a part of the very good thing they have.

It's an odd thing you know..... this whole business thing.... in that when dealing with outfitters, of just about any sort, you would find that it's the men who ask all of the initial questions. It's usually in the interest of the man, to discover all that might need to be known about the trip in the beginning....
Women, on many occasions, usually wouldn't know what to ask when setting up a trip, whether it be hunting, camping or fishing..... and it's usually out of respect for the man, in many cases, that the guides focus their attention on them..... instead of "yucking-it-up" with the man's wife..... which, incidently, can appear to be very disrespectful.
The irony exists in the fact that many of the men, a full 90% of them, that inquire about guided trips, are usually from out of state...... and 80% of the women that make guided trip inquiries, have been here all their lives.

Domestic abuse can be found in any state you visit..... especially if you are looking for it.... And yes, a certain amount of it goes on here, albeit at a greatly reduced rate, as in comparison to... let's say... California, Washington or even Florida......

The reason why women can get away with murder around here, is because, like in the old west, we honor our women, and hold them in high regard. Only a nutjob would hit someone they held with high regard.
Women around here too, know the power they have, and are, in many cases, much more aggressive than the men.

You see?... Even in these modern times, we get folks up here that will take a little respect, courtesy, and dignity and attempt to turn it into something dirty.... they simply cannot seem to wrap their minds around down home traditional values....

I can see where there might be some who would think our traditional ways are archaic (or coy)..... There are very, very few places in this country where traditional ways are even practiced any more.

[JoeJoeMan]

giftshopguy wrote:

The reason why women can get away with murder around here, is because, like in the old west, we honor our women, and hold them in high regard. Only a nutjob would hit someone they held with high regard.
Women around here too, know the power they have, and are, in many cases, much more aggressive than the men.

When it comes to wimmen, we ain't talking the 'great generation' here. Having grown up a baby bumme, my observation is that women of this generation are of very low moral character compare to my parent's generation. And no, of course it's not all women of today. But I can't tell you how many women I've meet and have known that are my age and have spent their entire life bounce from 'relationship' to the next, had 3 husbands, etc. And alot of men ain't any better, but were talking women now..... Basically spending their whole life scr*wing one guy after the next. Dumping one husband for the next, and they've always got some ridiculous excuse about "he doesn't trust me", of course he doesn't trust you. They constantly harressing and threatening the man with divorce, taking the children etc....
Inmoral women, of which there is no lack of today, are in a very large part to blame for alot or most of the social ills our society suffers from today, it's time we all wakeup and quit blaming men for everything. That is such a dated 60's notion.
Women always say "I shot him because he abused me".......yea well maybe he (the spouse) abused you because he know what an evil person you were, as wittness by you killing him. If women have an excuse for their violent actions than so do men, what's good for the goose is good for the gander - as they say. In the end it seems that the one that did the killing was really the violent and evil one of the pair.
I've witnessed alot more abuse and cruelity in my life done by women than done by men, so much so that's its not even a close call.
Someone once told me.........men are crooks and women are liers, and in reality lies ruin more lives than robbery, but if we made lying illegal the jails would be full of women.

[tom62]

Originally Posted by JoeJoeMan

tom62 wrote.....


You sound like, although you may not be, a typical liberal politically correct sexist.......women are just as obusive as men if not more so. And becuase of misinformed and uneducated views such as your's they (women) get away with murder, and I mean that literally. Witnessed by more than a few cases recently in Montana, example, "I didn't mean to shoot him in the back, the gun just went off" or the one "I just stabbed him in the leg, it was his fault he bleed to death"......In each one of these cases, the women thru in usual "I did it because he obused me"......of course I'd consider the person doing the shooting or stab the real abusive one.........in either case these low lifes got off with very minimal jail time, Basically they got away doing less time for killing someone than alot of people get for doing drugs. How did our justice system get so warped..........answer: liberal attitudes like your's,

you were right the second time, I may NOT be the type. I'm right over here, one 1st base, not left field! I can name names, places etc..however it would not be necessary. I only offer a brutally honest depiction of what I see or have experienced. Incedentally, in my extensive travels I have seen similar behavior during stays in Rawlins Wy, and Cheyenne Wy. I think if some of these ornary ba$tards had they way they may have put a leash on the lady. Anyhow, I have researched (going back a few years by now) and found both Rawlins and Cheyenne rank very high in the USA for domestic abuse. Basically, difficult living situations are the root cause.
I have no argument for the specific cases you bring up above. Im sure it happens, I've heard of it myself . The flaming and namecalling is totally unnacceptable and can gaurantee you would NOT be doing that in person!
Misinformed??? (from 1st hand experience) Uneducated? Pardon me, but perhaps have I described you in my post and happened to hit a nerve?
By the way, the wonderful gal at the bank (loan processer) told my wife later confidentially her hubby had wacked her....seems her job "innerfears with dinner tyme". I am curious if she followed my wifes advise to seek counceling.. Socially, we actually heard a local you girl, mom of like 3 kids, that from time to time her husband "just has to put me back in my place some times, its in the bible." Hmmmmmmm. I will note however this guy showed all the likings of a typical degenerate, could hardly join the conversation and would just hold his beer bottle and laugh.
Before you feel the need to get fired up and "retaliate" for something-please take note that <NO> I have not painted the entire cities population as domestic abusive. I just noticed it was prevelant to a degree that made it obvious it is there and sadly, if kept under your hat it seemed OK.

[MontanaGuy]

JJM, Hey maybe we can get a good argument going on here. I think tom62 has a valid point and I don't see this as anything that's liberal or conservative. Police statistics show that men commit about ten times as many murders as women. Men are just more violent, simple as that. Emergency rooms don't see many men who just got their butt kicked by their wives but they sure see the other side of the coin. Men are physically stronger and will almost always win in a fight with a woman. I agree that the great majority of men treat their girlfriends and wives respectfully but there's that small percentage of men who are truly abusive and they're the ones who create those statistics I'm referring to because they do it over and over again and it often ends in murder. It's true that women have killed their husbands, sometimes for insurance money or because they had a new boyfriend, no doubt about it. Police are pretty good at catching people in lies though and they've caught plenty of men and women who had either killed their spouse or were planning to (by hiring hit men who were actually undercover officers). My point is that domestic abuse is a very real thing and it needs to be taken seriously. I have no respect for a man who likes to slap his girlfriend or wife around and they need to be dealt with harshly.
Anyway, JJM, we haven't argued for awhile so maybe we can get this topic all heated up, that would be fun.

[JoeJoeMan]

Montanaguy....good to know we can still get at ends with each other over something, I was getting worried there for awhile.

but there's that small percentage of men who are truly abusive and they're the ones who create those statistics I'm referring to because they do it over and over again and it often ends in murder. It's true that women have killed their husbands, sometimes for insurance money or because they had a new boyfriend, no doubt about it. Police are pretty good at catching people in lies though and they've caught plenty of men and women who had either killed their spouse or were planning to (by hiring hit men who were actually undercover officers). My point is that domestic abuse is a very real thing and it needs to be taken seriously. I have no respect for a man who likes to slap his girlfriend or wife around and they need to be dealt with harshly.

Personally I have no respect for women who abuse there husbands, physical, emotionaly or with constant threats and intimdation tactics. If you haven't seen women pull the old "I'm make him pissed and jealous" routine you haven't been around the block very much. And they'll use some innocent guy to do it.
Sorry I just don't buy into that sad old stereo type of the bad abusive MALE, the females are just as much to blame, if not more so. Or are you suggesting that one sex is actually better than the other ? In which case you are implying that we are all not equal, that would be very un-liberal of you.
And that whole stereo type of "he beat me because I didn't have dinner on the table" is laughable. You know why he beat you..? probably the same reason you shot him, because you abused the sh*t out of him for the last 20 years. Hey ever heard the say..."hell hath no wrath like that of a women's scorn" ...dah why do you think eons of wisdom came up with that say...oh let me guess....because the world is full of bigoted evil men.
When haven't you ever heard someone complain that "it was his fault" of course it's always the other persons fault, always his fault. I don't think I've ever talked to a women who didn't say her spouse was a piece of sh*t and to blame for everything. In case you haven't notice it in life but men just don't go around as much as women do pissing and moaning and bad mouthing their spouse.
I just get a little sick and tired of men whole should know better sucking up to the whole female liberal propoganda that men are so evil, bad and abusive.
And incase you haven't notice it, the bigger **** they are the louder they complain.
Sorry to say it, but in domestic situations, that I've personally wittnessed, I've seen alot more dispicable women, coniving, lying, manipulating....they seem to pry on men knowing that they can hide behind their "I'm a women and if you hit me you're labeled an a**hole in the eyes of society".....
Personaly you're a sucker and a very bad judge of human behaviour if you buy into all those liberal stereotypes of men, not only that but you betray your own selfworth, species and very being when doing it; stand up for yourself and your own kind or are have you become so brow beating you no longer have a backbone.
Maybe you should go off and have a good cry and get in touch with your inner child, and ask for forgivness from the female species, least you they never give you any more sex. What a weak mindless, spinless bunch of whimps the american male has turned into, and you wonder why our society has so many ills. Because the men have turned into a bunch of pussies so willing to accept any blame that is thrown at them.... meaning you....
It's time men stood up and said..."No we ain't buying into this crap anymore". But somehow I don't think you got the stones to do that, do you Montanaguy or am I wrong ? Because you might get accused of being not very "sensitive" to women's issues. Boy, if you can't see thru all this bs you truely are in a sorry state.

[MontanaGuy]

Personaly you're a sucker and a very bad judge of human behaviour if you buy into all those liberal stereotypes of men

That was a pretty good rant there JJM. I get the feeling you might have had some bad experiences with women. I look at it this way. I do consider men and women to be equals but we're not the same when it comes to our psychological makeup. Men are more physically aggressive and prone to violence. If you look at all types of crime, not just between men and women, you'll see that men commit almost all of the robberies, assaults, vandalism, car thefts, burglaries, etc. In fact it's such a novelty for women to commit these crimes that it's usually national news like it was recently when two young women were arrested for holdups that would have barely made the local news if men would have been responsible. I'll agree with you that women do things a little differently if they have a grudge against someone but it's not likely going to end up in a fist fight. I don't see any of these thoughts as liberal sterotypes or as liberal at all. I also don't think it diminishes my manhood to stand up for a woman's right to feel safe in her own home, in fact I think a real man would take that point of view. Any man who slaps around a woman is a coward in my book and if a woman is under attack from a man who is physically stronger she has every right to pick up a gun and blow his fool head off. How's that for starters?

[Hawkeye48]

I have lived in over a half a dozen states as well as the UK and Germany and from what I've seen we take a much harder line on domestic abuse toward adults than elsewhere. But we tend to be a bit more lenient toward abuse toward children. Americans will tend to call the cops on someone if they see an adult strike his wife, but not his child.

[ontheroad]

Did this thread start out in a Western State forum?

First, it is interesting to hear the two disparate POVs, and JoeJoeMan, you sure as heck sound mighty angry.

If the question is about the prevalence of domestic abuse in the Western States compared to elsewhere, I'd say that it is well distributed regionally. Vermont or Maine had a thread going about domestic violence not too long ago. And, I know from experience that domestic violence (man to woman) is very night nationally. I attended a workshop several years ago where women reported domestic violence (80% of attendees) and incest survival (65% of attendees).

The demographic figures are astronomical among one or two ethnic and/or racial groups, but overall it may be attributed to poverty, lack of education, substance using behaviors and isolation. Isolation coupled with substance using behavior is attributed to higher domestic violence figures (and in rural areas this is magnified).

I'm sure someone can get the data on where incidents are highest & lowest, but it sure isn't domestic violence (female to male) that is highest for sure.