Define "Conservatism" (John Kerry, Iraq, interview, Kerry)

[Greatday]

Originally Posted by Hombre57

As a law abiding citizen, I would never feel the necessity of carrying a firearm to a town hall meeting, no matter what side of the fence I was on, right, or left. I actually think the people who did bring weapons to town hall meetings are slightly deranged, or they suffer from an inferiority complex. Why else would a normal level headed individual do that? To merely assert his/her constitutional right to do so? Sorry Joe, I don't buy it.

I (and my wife) carry concealed weapons with us just about all the time. They are "part" of us. Recently Arizona law changed that allows concealed weapons to be carried in establishments where alcohol is served.

Our firearms are carried in malls, restaurants, while driving, church, at home. Neither I nor my wife have an "inferiority" complex.

There has been an incident in my life where I did shoot and kill an intruder into my home. There was a recent incident here in AZ where a guy was a victim of a shooting - turned out to be a gang initiation where the new guy had to shoot and kill someone - instead, the victim, although wounded, shot and killed the gang banger - and saved his own life.

You never know.

[BigJon3475]

Originally Posted by Hombre57

And, if I did reside in a crime riddled area such as you do, I would keep a firearm in my home for protection, but I would not ADVERTISE IT.

Now think about which house a criminal would pick. A house with nothing or a house with an NRA sign out front and also a sticker on every window or door? The answer should be quiet obvious and you can make a very easy decision that if you have said stickers and signs on your windows and in your yard and someone still breaks in they don't plan to just steal your belongings.

[ndfmnlf]

Originally Posted by Joe_Ryder

Language changes and evolves. While you are technically correct, as the term is used today, conservative and Republican are fairly synonymous just as liberal tends to be synonymous with Democrat.

By todays standards, I'd consider Lincoln a centrist with a statist lean. He wasn't nearly as concerned with ending slavery as he was with preserving the union, i.e. keeping the status quo, which would even by your apparent definition be considered quite conservative on that particular subject.

So if Lincoln was a conservative, what were the Confederates? Bleeding heart liberals? LOL...... Also, you said preserving the status quo is conservative, right? What was the status quo? Answer: slavery.

But let's forget Lincoln because I know you cling to his party label as your proof to yourself that he is a conservative. I'm more interested in the agenda of abolishing slavery itself. Is abolitionism a conservative tenet? Were the abolitionists (those who believed in abolishing the centuries old social institution of slavery) conservatives or liberals? Who was more inclined to perpetuate slavery - conservatives or liberals?

[BigHouse9]

Originally Posted by ndfmnlf

So if Lincoln was a conservative, what were the Confederates? Bleeding heart liberals? LOL...... Also, you said preserving the status quo is conservative, right? What was the status quo? Answer: slavery.

But let's forget Lincoln because I know you cling to his party label as your proof to yourself that he is a conservative. I'm more interested in the agenda of abolishing slavery itself. Is abolitionism a conservative tenet? Were the abolitionists (those who believed in abolishing the centuries old social institution of slavery) conservatives or liberals? Who was more inclined to perpetuate slavery - conservatives or liberals?

Why don't you tell us what you think about it?

[BigHouse9]

And are you more interested in picking a fight or defining conservatism? If you want the definition of conservative as you initially asked, plenty have defined it in a modern sense. Conservatism isn't the same from generation to generation.

Some of the points of the Kirk Center link nail it dead on:

- Conservatives sense that modern people are dwarfs on the shoulders of giants, able to see farther than their ancestors only because of the great stature of those who have preceded us in time. In other words, we learn from our predecessors and by using that knowledge, we become better.

- The conservative is not opposed to social improvement, although he doubts whether there is any such force as a mystical Progress, with a Roman P, at work in the world. When a society is progressing in some respects, usually it is declining in other respects. The conservative knows that any healthy society is influenced by two forces, which Samuel Taylor Coleridge called its Permanence and its Progression. The Permanence of a society is formed by those enduring interests and convictions that gives us stability and continuity; without that Permanence, the fountains of the great deep are broken up, society slipping into anarchy. The Progression in a society is that spirit and that body of talents which urge us on to prudent reform and improvement; without that Progression, a people stagnate.

So progression for the sake of progression is not the answer. We would rather take time to implement and test our ideals rather than run blindly at things so that we can maintain "stability and continuity".

You would do well to read the article: The Kirk Center - Ten Conservative Principles by Russell Kirk

[Old Gringo]

Originally Posted by Joe_Ryder

Given the government's success rate at running social programs efficiently, it's a fairly safe bet.

I see...

You speak of validity yet want to draw conclusions on a complete lack of data. You conservos are amusing. And consistent. Don't allow reality to change you, OK.

[Hombre57]

Originally Posted by BigJon3475

Now think about which house a criminal would pick. A house with nothing or a house with an NRA sign out front and also a sticker on every window or door? The answer should be quiet obvious and you can make a very easy decision that if you have said stickers and signs on your windows and in your yard and someone still breaks in they don't plan to just steal your belongings.

Not being a criminal, and not knowing how a criminal mind works, but, if I were a criminal, I would pick the home with the NRA sticker because it would be an advertisement that there are guns in the home, which a criminal could sell them on the streets. (logic)

The analogy you're portraying here?
I put a $10 bill on my car seat and locked the doors and put the windows up. Who's going to smash the window to get the $10 bill? a liberal or a conservative?
A smart person wouldn't leave anything visible to steal, and wouldn't advertise it either.

I would also think that a watchdog would be a good deterrent to home invasion.

I think we're going way off the subject though.

I also think the are liberals who like guns too.

There are probably as many right wing radicals who would think nothing of shooting another person, just as there are left wing radicals.

Again, why carry a gun to a public meeting? Just to assert your rights?
I don't buy it. I think these people did it to pump media coverage, and to send a message of some kind to the party which they dislike. Nothing more, nothing less. These people were probably hoping they'd be arrested, so they could cry to the media that liberals really are for gun control and the stripping of rights.

And, do you know what?

It didn't work.

[BigHouse9]

Originally Posted by Old Gringo

I see...

You speak of validity yet want to draw conclusions on a complete lack of data. You conservos are amusing. And consistent. Don't allow reality to change you, OK.

Bankruptcy Looms for Medicare, Social Security and Medicaid - bankrupt social programs services government welfare obama geithner new deal | Midwest Free Press

And that is just one link of the many that you can find simply by looking. The Government run social programs are going bankrupt due to fraud and abuse. Don't let that data or that reality get in the way of anything in wherever world you live.

[SLCPUNK]

Originally Posted by ndfmnlf

This thread is for those of you who call yourselves conservatives. Explain what you mean by the term. Don't bother showing me links to wikipedia and other references coz I've already checked. I want to hear from you what your conception is of your ideology.

According to them:

- Invading countries that didn't attack us.

- Expanding Medicare/Medicaid

- Sending out stimulus checks

- Using tax payer money to "bail out" Wall Street

- Government should intervene into the personal lives of it's citizens and dictate who can and can not get married.

- Government should tell a woman what she can and can not do with her body.

- Public option bad, Medicare good

[wade52]

Originally Posted by BigHouse9

Bankruptcy Looms for Medicare, Social Security and Medicaid - bankrupt social programs services government welfare obama geithner new deal | Midwest Free Press

And that is just one link of the many that you can find simply by looking. The Government run social programs are going bankrupt due to fraud and abuse. Don't let that data or that reality get in the way of anything in wherever world you live.

That's last year's news.

We got a new sheriff in town.