What do you think of Native American mascots in sports? (health care, website)

[johnrex62]

Originally Posted by gizmo980

I wonder if you'd say the same, if it was YOUR heritage being ridiculed and turned into a caricature... let's say there were teams called the Washington Crackers, San Antonio Gringos, and so on (or similar, if you're something besides White). As others said, this is a matter of respect and common decency - not Political Correctness.

You mean like the Boston Celtics with their little leprechan image? Doesn't bother me any. My Scot-Irish parents and grandparents didn't seem to mind either. Or maybe the icons used by consumer products like Irish Spring, Lucky Charms, Ducth Boy cleaner, and the like? Hmmm, can't say I am bothered by those either. I think some of them are pretty funny and not in the least truly characteristic of my heritage despite the corporate claims otherwise.

But then I am not bothered by the centuries of slavery my people endured under the Roman rule. I even married a girl of Italian-German descent after her people ensleved my ancestors and persecuted my religion and fought open war with my country. Damn! I must be a truly tolerant person to forgive all that personal affrontery. Gotta stretch now so I don't hurt myself when I pat myself on the back. Ciao!

[Martin Karadagian]

Originally Posted by CelticLady1

Actually, I liked your whole post, but I wanted to specifically address this point you made. I use both "Native American" and "Indian". I spent a number of my growing-up years on the Reservation, in Wyoming, so it's habit, to use the term "Indian". At that time, they generally referred to themselves that way. My granddad used it, and he was half-Seminole. Nowadays, from the things that I have heard and read, it seems both terms are used. Some Indians prefer that term, and some Native Americans prefer that one. Many of them prefer the name they have for their own tribe. I think it just depends on who you're around. Russell Means, a Lakota activist, and movie actor, made a statement that anyone born in the United States, is a Native American. Other NA's/Indians wouldn't agree with that. Like I said, I guess it depends on who you're around.

That's very interesting CelticLady! I can see the logic in what Russell Means stated as well. I think the same type of situation is similar with Asian Americans and the alternative term "Oriental". I think the vast majority prefer to be referred to as Asian/Asian American in the U.S., but as I understand it, in other western nations there are those that prefer the term oriental. But, even on some Asian discussion boards I've seen, some Asian Americans differ on the appropriateness of the term "Oriental", as in whether it should ever be used.

And like you said, we just have to make the best decision we can in that there's not always a cut and dry answer.

[Mooseketeer]

Not being American or Native American I can't really comment but I suspect that if soccer teams in the UK were called the Chelsea "N....." or the Manchester "Slaves" "Golliwogs" etc.. it would probably seen as a bit inflammatory.... I agree that PC has gone too far though but still a bit of cultural sensitivity wouldn't hurt. Maybe it should be up to the Native American tribal council? As I said it's difficult for me to express an opinion. I suspect these names are a lot less offensive if used with no negative connotations.
As a woman I wouldn't particularly like a team called the "bitches" or "whores" for example. I would find that really offensive though I'm sure a lot of people wouldn't.
Would we ever use disparaging terms for Jewish people for example ? I think not and quite rightly too.

[Martin Karadagian]

Originally Posted by KittensPurr

Greetings Martin -
As an aside, there is a hideously ugly caricature of a leprachaun in Boston near one of the tunnel/highway entrances (sorry, I forget which one) that I've often felt doesn't best represent the Irish, especially since they were referred to & ridiculed as monkeys (you can see this referred to in newspaper clippings at that time) when they first emigrated to America. I don't know exactly what it's supposed to represent (the people themselves or just an ugly little trollish fantasy creature), but if you search through old newspapers at that time, it's quite astounding how the drawings of the Irish are portrayed as 1/2 human & 1/2 monkey, similar to this caricature. They're as offensive & similar to the caricatures of African Americans you see from that same time period, to give you a visual. A non-Irish friend gave me a sweatshirt with this caricature & underneath it the words "Boston Irish" were written, & since in this case it was a representation of the people themselves, I found it embarassing, discarded it & was unsure why she'd given it to me in the first place. Any people being depicted or represented in this way is unnecessary, so I do understand your points & agree.

Yes, I'm ethnic Italian, and we sort of went through the same type of things Irish immigrants went through. I'm not sure about caricatures, but in very old Hollywood movies, a typical Italian character was depicted as someone with a monkey and grinder, or a over excited grocer pushing a vegetable cart. I'm really not sure how much offense it actually brought to Italian Americans. It seems that this portrayal actually didn't last that long relatively speaking. So it's possible there may of been a certain amount of protest.

Help me understand this. Going back to my previous post, are you saying no images/names at all should be used in reference to Natives? Calling a team the Cherokees or Mohawks is not appropriate? Do the names Vikings/Celtics bother you, as well, as not being respectful to these groups of people?

Well I would say it's not a good idea for a newly formed sports franchise to adopt a related nickname at this point. What I basically meant was, since the widespread protest of NA (acronym for Native American just to make it easier) nicknames, any time a new franchise is developed, they never adopt an NA nickname anymore. Franchise owners are more careful nowadays. And this probably includes any type of nickname related to an ethnicity. Like the NFL in recent years have added expansion teams in places like Jacksonville and North Carolina, and created generic mascots, meaning mascots that can be used anywhere, and are not ethnic related. And NFL owners have moved their teams to different places like Tennessee and Baltimore, and changed their mascots. Baltimore created a non ethnic related mascot that was identifiable to the city. They are called the Ravens, taken from Edgar Alan Poe's story.

Of course there's going to be issues of context where mascots that could be related to an ethnicity, or a criminal element, in general are not. The Arena League football team called the Las Vegas Gladiators (or is it LA?), are not in any way in contention with Italian and/or Southern Europeans. It was obviously created because of a popular Hollywood movie. Or the Canadien hockey team the Calgary Hitmen. Unlike the old Washington Bullets of the NBA, it's generally not viewed as a negative mark against the city. The name was developed in respect to a pro wrestler with the nickname Hitman who is from there. So, if team owners really viewed the protest of usage of NA mascots as ridiculous, and really wanted to make a point of it, they could continue to do so anytime a new sports team franchise is developed. But, they don't. It's just that there are certain teams with a long history that want to cling to their nickname/mascots. And there's probably various reasons. Chances are there probably would be quite a bit of protest if say the Washington Redskins decided to change their nickname. They have a winning team legacy, and a super bowl ring. People identify with symbols, and take pride in them. But, a team and community could also take pride in letting go of a mascot that brought obvious offense to an ethnic group.

I understand & wonder in which context this is being taught in school? When pioneers first arrived this was the image they saw, or these images represent the community now? Again, help me understand, please.

I had heard of an instance where a Native American child, came up to her father or Grandfather, and said something like "now I know what being Indian means. It's wearing feathers and war paint". This was in reference to something she was taught in her elementary school. I don't think it was too long ago. This type of thing may not be the case with all schools, but evidently there's still a problem with the way Native Americans are depicted, even in some schools. So, basically, when your average person when thinking of a Native American, automatically thinks of the Western movies version, this would be something of great concern. And especially, when a Native American child has this thought pattern as well from depictions in school books, I can see where even greater concern may lie. And, sport mascots depicting Native Americans fall in line with these type of depictions that cause concern.

So, there is definitely, I would say, an issue of cultural preservation at stake. Even though European culture has been dying over the years in the U.S., the concern is not nearly as high. For instance, U.S. cities with an Italian neighborhood that at one time had a very distinct Italian flair, may not have it anymore. An old Italian neighborhood in a nearby city to myself, now only has some Italian restaurants and cappuccino shops. But that's about it. But, most of us Italian Americans know that if we really want to experience Italian culture, all we need do is go to Italy. We generally don't worry about a dying Italian American culture. We've pretty much accepted assimilation.

I agree with you & hope you're not addressing me as saying/thinking these things, as I'd never invalidate another's opinion nor use name calling to dismiss others. It serves no purpose & is not in my vernacular. Points can always be made with respect, without name calling, as we've both done here.

Oh no, I was definitely not referring to you. There's a general opinion from some that I highly disagree with pertaining to what is, or what is not authentic concerns.

[Baltic_Celt]

Celtic & Martin -

This has been a most informative thread & I thank you very much for the dialogue & your honest, forthright answers. In addition, Martin, you've given me much food for thought & I very much appreciate your patience in explaining your opinions. We're in agreement & I wouldn't have known as much about several of the issues you discussed, had I not seen your thread, so thank you for beginning it.

Have a great weekend... VV

[Torrey]

Originally Posted by Martin Karadagian

I think teams like the Washington Redskins (possibly the most offensive nickname), Cleveland Indians, KC Chiefs, and Atlanta Braves should all change their nicknames.

That's just ignorance. Sports are the modern day BATTLE FIELD, and a "Test of Battle" for young men. Those names are Warrior names for the teams, and if anything, the Indians should be proud that Americans are honoring them in that way.

[CelticLady1]

Originally Posted by Torrey

That's just ignorance. Sports are the modern day BATTLE FIELD, and a "Test of Battle" for young men. Those names are Warrior names for the teams, and if anything, the Indians should be proud that Americans are honoring them in that way.

Hmm, so apparently, by your logic, the Indians, (either as individuals or their tribes), who do object, to being used as sports mascots are ignorant. Interesting concept. I'm sure that will go over well with them. Maybe you could go to one of their tribal council meetings or a powwow, and make this statement.

[Vagabond]

Yes, it is racist. They were eradicated, shunted off their own land and to add insult to injury, they are turned into for-profit slogans and logos to help their vanquishers get ever richer off their misfortune. To cap it all off they are frequently drawn with over emphasized characteristics that hail from the no-hold-bars racism of the earlier part of this country's history. Imagine a team called the Louisville N*ggers with a Sambo or Amos and Andy black-face mascot.

...yeah, pretty damn racist.

Have to chuckle over the "grow a thicker skin" comment.

*Dead from laughing too hard*

[Martin Karadagian]

Originally Posted by KittensPurr

Greetings Celtic -
To Anyone -

This may sound off-topic, but, stick with me as I believe it relates. I think part of the issue can become sticky when one thinks that everyone should be privvy to all the in's & out's of their culture. I don't necessarily mean Native. I'm 4 nationalities, 3 of which are obscure & have worldwide populations of under 5-million, 1-million & 1/2-million. I'm often asked "What's that?" when reciting my nationality. It does register with me that people say "what" & "that" in reference to people, rather than "Who are they?", but I don't want to make assumptions & I'm well traveled enough to know that a small portion of people don't know, will never know & don't care about other cultures. I also have experienced eyerolls after trying to explain where my folks come from & there's little understanding on the other person's part, as if my culture doesn't matter. So be it. What can I do? As someone wisely told me yesterday, I can't change anyone & some don't wish to listen or learn new things. Point taken.

I think each one of us needs to remember that we can't know everything about every culture, or religion, for that matter, so calm dialogue is what's necessary, for which I'm appreciative of Martin & others here. I see people in my neighborhood who are from Africa, donned in the traditional dress of their culture who speak little to no English. Since there are 100 African countries, I can't always know which country they're from & details about each individual's culture. Nor can I identify them by their language. I feel the same way if someone refers to one who is Scottish as Irish. I can clearly tell the difference, but others, not exposed to those cultures may not, even referring to them as "Sell-tic" rather than "Kell-tic". Some don't know that Celtic doesn't refer only to Irish, others think it includes English & that Welsh are English. Fine. I'd be too exhausted to stop people everytime I hear a sexist comment, racist remark (no matter which race is making the offensive remark), derrogatory statement about about someone's reputation, character or nationality, etc. I don't enjoy hearing "All men/women are...", "All white/black people are...", "All Italians/English are..." & like statements, but I hear them regularly, as do many of us & just do my best to not engage in such banter.

This is my opinion & it may only be part of the issue, but I think these problems will always exist when a country like America is comprised of hundreds of different nationalities, religions & languages. There are hundreds of Protestant religions, the majority of which I know little about. Do most of us, whether Protestant or not? We are a true melting pot & some things won't blend together well, even just personlaity-wise, but, also by choice due to preconceived notions, prejudices or different personality types living in close proximity (a loud family living next to those who prefer quiet, a family with kids living next to those who have none, night-owls living next to those in bed by 9pm, etc.). The other element is that many of us have families that are straight off the boat (I'm first born), so are trying to assimilate, but sometimes struggle to do so. Families like us often have 1 foot in this country & 1 in the "old country", or countries in my case. Others of course, don't want to & will never assimilate & nothing will change that. In any event, there will be times when toes are stepped on, intentionally & unintentionally, as I've experienced many times. Who hasn't stuck their foot in their mouths? Who hasn't been affronted in 1 way or another? A forgiving spirit is often times necessary & a desire to stand up for oneself with dignity & respect is oh, so important in times when someone must be confronted. I think dismissive "get over it" statements, some of which I see often on this site, only show someone who lacks compassion. I do, also think that those who expect everyone to understand them, as I've often seen on this site too, is also not compassionate. No one can know everything, but we can all learn something. Entire groups of people are also not responsible for another group's distress, no matter how you slice it - men/women, younger/older, southerners/northerners, one culture/another culture.

I'm learning alot from people who are kind enough to share their thoughts & ideas & are tolerant of my inability to know everything. Thanks for that.

Have fun... VV

This is a very interesting and insightful post. I also think it's interesting that you have 3 ethnic backgrounds that are relatively obscure. I'm guessing they're ethnicities that don't make up a whole nation, but rather ethnicities within a nation where a majority of another ethnicity make up the majority. I'm half Russian as well as half Italian. At one time, I actually thought there were very few ethnic Russians in the U.S. It seems that possibly since Russia's major governmental change, and the addition of the internet, I'm hearing more about ethnic Russians being in greater number in the U.S.

When my ancestors arrived from Russia, they did not assimilate to any real degree. They maintained a more or less transplanted Russian cultural lifestyle. But, the children assimilated immediately due to being White. Now, any sign of Russian ethnicity in my family would occur from table conversation only. But, for non-White ethnicities, it's just not that easy. We are all still check marks on an application. Both on paper, and how we're perceived by others. So consequently, we get the various statements like "Native Americans should be glad we didn't wipe them out", or as someone told me "Asians shouldn't complain because they rate the highest as the most successful minority group". I think what he meant by that is, they should be glad they are on the 2nd tier level of the ladder. One would have to wonder how serious do we take the word "equal" that our great country phrases? Instead we have the ladder effect according to race.

So when you add it all up, the usage of 'some' Native American mascots, ethnic stereotype and ridicule in the media, etc. It's a more subtle way of maintaining the "tier-level ladder effect" by race.

[anonymous]

Originally Posted by Vagabond

Yes, it is racist. They were eradicated, shunted off their own land and to add insult to injury, they are turned into for-profit slogans and logos to help their vanquishers get ever richer off their misfortune. To cap it all off they are frequently drawn with over emphasized characteristics that hail from the no-hold-bars racism of the earlier part of this country's history. Imagine a team called the Louisville N*ggers with a Sambo or Amos and Andy black-face mascot.

...yeah, pretty damn racist.

Have to chuckle over the "grow a thicker skin" comment.

*Dead from laughing too hard*

So by your logic, the FSU Seminoles refer to themselves as "Seminoles" because they categorically hate Seminoles, or consider them to be of an inferior race. That's an.. interesting.. point of view you have.