What do you think of Native American mascots in sports? (racism, Reed)

[CelticLady1]

Originally Posted by anonymous

So by your logic, the FSU Seminoles refer to themselves as "Seminoles" because they categorically hate Seminoles, or consider them to be of an inferior race. That's an.. interesting.. point of view you have.

For goodness' sake, go back and read some of the earlier posts! In at least two of mine, I mentioned the fact that FSU and the Seminole Tribe of Florida have a pretty decent relationship, though if one reads up on it, you'll find that it did take awhile to work things out, to everyone's satisfaction. However, not all tribes have the same outlook on the use of mascots. Which is what I have been saying the whole time through this thread; that the individual tribes should be consulted, and not just brushed off, regarding this issue. Some of them do think it's racist. And, some don't care. I will say again, for those who keep missing it, this issue may not be the most important one in Indian Country, but neither is it right to tell them to "grow a thicker skin". Do some research, listen to them, and take into consideration their collective thoughts and feelings.

[anonymous]

Originally Posted by CelticLady1

For goodness' sake, go back and read some of the earlier posts! In at least two of mine, I mentioned the fact that FSU and the Seminole Tribe of Florida have a pretty decent relationship, though if one reads up on it, you'll find that it did take awhile to work things out, to everyone's satisfaction. However, not all tribes have the same outlook on the use of mascots. Which is what I have been saying the whole time through this thread; that the individual tribes should be consulted, and not just brushed off, regarding this issue. Some of them do think it's racist. And, some don't care. I will say again, for those who keep missing it, this issue may not be the most important one in Indian Country, but neither is it right to tell them to "grow a thicker skin". Do some research, listen to them, and take into consideration their collective thoughts and feelings.

I wasn't talking to or about you, or anything you have said. I was referring to the link that Vagabond was trying to establish between the past treatment of Native Americans compared to the use of their symbols today. I thought it was a pretty sloppy use of the word 'racism,' and that it was just tossed out there for effect, without much regard to the word's meaning. Also, referring to Pro and Collegiate sports programs as "The Vanquishers of Native Americans" just seems silly to me.

[CelticLady1]

Originally Posted by anonymous

I wasn't talking to or about you, or anything you have said. I was referring to the link that Vagabond was trying to establish between the past treatment of Native Americans compared to the use of their symbols today. I thought it was a pretty sloppy use of the word 'racism,' and that it was just tossed out there for effect, without much regard to the word's meaning. Also, referring to Pro and Collegiate sports programs as "The Vanquishers of Native Americans" just seems silly to me.

I'm well aware that you weren't speaking to, or about me, (and I apologize if I came across too brusque). But, I answered because of your example of FSU, and the Seminole Tribe, which I had already spoken to, earlier. And, because yes, there is a connection, at least for some Indians, between how they were treated in the past, and the use of sports mascots in the present. It is a matter of perception, and many of them don't appreciate it. Anymore than many black people appreciate, say, lawn jockeys, "Little Black Sambo", "Aunt Jemima", or "Amos and Andy". Some people would say that there was no harm intended; that it was all just in fun; nothing personal. That's not how many of them look at it. And, many Indians don't consider sports mascots an "honor", just because a bunch of white folks think they should. Again, it has to do with perception.

[silas777]

Originally Posted by Martin Karadagian

I don't think this is a sticks and stones, may broke my bones scenario. Neither do I think that way about racist remarks by shock jocks. These types of racism and stereotype have negative affects on entire ethnic groups.

How is it negative, people are rooting for them to win,hello! thats positive!! besides the KC White Guys, is really boring!

[anonymous]

Originally Posted by CelticLady1

I'm well aware that you weren't speaking to, or about me, (and I apologize if I came across too brusque). But, I answered because of your example of FSU, and the Seminole Tribe, which I had already spoken to, earlier. And, because yes, there is a connection, at least for some Indians, between how they were treated in the past, and the use of sports mascots in the present. It is a matter of perception, and many of them don't appreciate it. Anymore than many black people appreciate, say, lawn jockeys, "Little Black Sambo", "Aunt Jemima", or "Amos and Andy". Some people would say that there was no harm intended; that it was all just in fun; nothing personal. That's not how many of them look at it. And, many Indians don't consider sports mascots an "honor", just because a bunch of white folks think they should. Again, it has to do with perception.

You seem to be reading too much into my past few statements. I'm not arguing that Native Americans should feel any particular way. My point, and the only thing I commented on, was that Vagabond's use of the term "Racism" was not accurate.

Additionally, saying that "Kansas City Chiefs" or "FSU Seminoles" is the same as the "Louisville N***ers" is a poor analogy. The first two are legitimate proper names, the other is a word that is specifically intended to offend. Last I checked, use of the word "Seminole" was not considered offensive slang.

[CelticLady1]

Originally Posted by anonymous

You seem to be reading too much into my past few statements. I'm not arguing that Native Americans should feel any particular way. My point, and the only thing I commented on, was that Vagabond's use of the term "Racism" was not accurate.

Additionally, saying that "Kansas City Chiefs" or "FSU Seminoles" is the same as the "Louisville N***ers" is a poor analogy. The first two are legitimate proper names, the other is a word that is specifically intended to offend. Last I checked, use of the word "Seminole" was not considered offensive slang.

Well, the only thing I can say is, read up on this, yourself. You can google about it, and come up with a number of websites that discuss this issue, in a much better way than I can. Perhaps then, you will come to a better understanding of the whole thing.

[RedWingsFan]

What do you think of Native American mascots in sports?

I don't find them offensive at all. I think people have become so politically correct today that it's ridiculous. Little did I know that when I was 8 running around playing cowboys and Indians that I was offending someone. Please!

What next? Change the name of "football" to oblong ball so that nobody's feet get offended??? Oh bother!

[Baltic_Celt]

Originally Posted by Martin Karadagian

This is a very interesting and insightful post. I also think it's interesting that you have 3 ethnic backgrounds that are relatively obscure. I'm guessing they're ethnicities that don't make up a whole nation, but rather ethnicities within a nation where a majority of another ethnicity make up the majority.

Greetings Martin -

Sorry, I've been offline for days, hence my delay in replying. Nope, one can never assume. In regard to my nationality, I'm speaking of ethnicities that make up the vast majority of their countries - almost 100% in each case. It doesn't matter anyway, as my point was that one doesn't always know what comprises each of us is, just by looking, nor how to address us once another finds out, particularly when more obscure nationalities, blends of nationalities/races or even different religions, are involved. As we've seen written here, some in the same group differ in how they view being addressed, which further complicates the issue & adds to the potential for stepping on someone's toes. I haven't always been asked these questions in the nicest of ways, nor addressed in the nicest of ways & it wasn't one particular group of people who'd done so. Rudeness/prejudice knows no boundaries no matter how you slice it - age groups, ethnic groups, religious backgrounds, birth countries, sex. Additionally, no one represents all of their group. I don't speak for all women, nor do I choose to, but I do take a deep breath & stiffle a big sigh when I hear anyone say "Most/all women are..." statements, as in a country with 350-ish million people, of which 52+ % are women, what the social life one must have, to be able to truthfully make such a statement, or others like it.

I think these can become hot issues when protestors assume all white folks are the same, have all the wealth/power & think the same way. If so, someone out there's walking around with all my money & power. I've gotta tell ya, I have female friends the same age as me & I have no earthly idea why they think, desire or strive for the things they do & vice versa. My friends & I come from completely different backgrounds - economically, familial, socially, religiously, ethnically & in just about any other way you slice it. If one belongs to a group that's being dumped on, of course it's felt more strongly. I certainly feel female sexism in the workplace more strongly than a man. A man can't necessarily understand how it feels to be a woman walking home on a dark evening. But, listening to & sympathizing with her cautions & ways of dealing with it, rather than dismissing her as choosing to be the victim of her own nervous personality serves no purpose & completely misses the point. No one can expect to be taken seriously while making any kind of dismissive statement, on either side of any argument. I feel this is some of what's being experienced in this thread, on both sides of the coin.

But, for non-White ethnicities, it's just not that easy. We are all still check marks on an application. Both on paper, and how we're perceived by others.

When it comes to the gov't, corporations, health care insurance, etc., we're all just check marks on an application. Further, no one can control how others will perceive them. Many things cannot be completely "hidden" - color, sex & sometimes religion, if one's religion requires specific dress, for example, particularly in a mixed nation like the US, where blends of different nationalities or races are involved. Over the past few years, people in Boston expressed dissatisfaction with school form checkboxes that didn't include their tri-racial heritage. There have to be some who are quad-racial, yes? What about them? Where does protesting end? Should my 3 rather obscure nationalities be reflected in mainstream America? They never have been before.

You wouldn't know that my brother's naturally blonde/blue-eyed wife with a Dutch name were 1/2 Native American, if she didn't tell you. You wouldn't know the heritage my other brother's 1/2 Filipino daughter by looking at her either. Some have guessed Italian, Lebanese, African, Puerto Rican or a blend of any/all. She's none of what anyone ever guesses. You'd have no idea which nationality I were, by looking at me either. No one, not one, has ever guessed correctly. Ever. How should I respond? Call them insensitive & uncaring for not knowing? Walk away thinking how they are prejudiced for not having a vast knowledge of every tiny country & it's people on every continent? If you knew my real first name, which I rarely use, you'd not be able to pronounce it. No one has. Ever. If I pronounced it, you'd never guess how to spell it correctly with all it's 20 letters + hyphen. Are you ethnically exclusive then? Gosh, that'd be an exhausting job for me to carry around all that judgement & one I see no need to hold. I believe that people on all sides of these issues need to lighten up a bit, practice a bit of forgiveness & manners.

So consequently, we get the various statements like "Native Americans should be glad we didn't wipe them out", or as someone told me "Asians shouldn't complain because they rate the highest as the most successful minority group". I think what he meant by that is, they should be glad they are on the 2nd tier level of the ladder. One would have to wonder how serious do we take the word "equal" that our great country phrases? Instead we have the ladder effect according to race.

I don't know whom you know, but it sounds like you may need a new social circle, immediately. If I'm around folks who think these things, fortunately, I'm not aware of it, as I've not only never engaged in such discussions, but never overheard these conversations. I've never heard anyone make a statement about being lucky "whites" haven't wiped them out. Are you making an "All white people are..." statement? You seem to be expressing it as if it were the majority who believe this, so I'm asking. If it's just one or a few, why give it merit & pose it as if it were a given belief? Am I missing how you've meant this to be conveyed? Get away from these folks & this thinking, is all I have to say. I have read rude statements on message boards, but, honestly, not one of us knows who's on the other side of the keyboard. I do dismiss many of these message board outbursts as pranks & remind myself that it's highly probable they would not be friends of mine had we met in person. I don't draw these people to me & in the off chance someone is rude in addressing me or others around me, I thank them for revealing themselves upfront. This way, they've wasted none of my time in getting to know them further & they can surround themselves with like minded folks who share their beliefs.

All of us need to take care in what we say. This also means not forcing opinions or beliefs on others. There are forums on this board that I don't venture into, because I'm not interested and/or people can be forceful with their opinions & not mindful of others' feelings. I saw that before separate rooms were created & the posts were all mingled together. I'm glad they're now compartmentalized. Perhaps others will lable me segregationist, but so be it, they're entitled to think as they choose. I feel I'm being respectful by not jumping into the room & telling them they shouldn't discuss xxx. I think not assuming, respecting & compassion are the key to it all. Lacking that, no one wants to listen to what we feel the need to share, no matter how important the issue to us.

Good dialogue.
Have fun... VV

[Martin Karadagian]

[quote=KittensPurr;789411]Greetings Martin -[quote]
Hello!

I don't know whom you know, but it sounds like you may need a new social circle, immediately. If I'm around folks who think these things, fortunately, I'm not aware of it, as I've not only never engaged in such discussions, but never overheard these conversations. I've never heard anyone make a statement about being lucky "whites" haven't wiped them out.

Well, actually that statement was made on a post in this thread that was apparently deleted so I'll leave that one alone.

Are you making an "All white people are..." statement? You seem to be expressing it as if it were the majority who believe this, so I'm asking. If it's just one or a few, why give it merit & pose it as if it were a given belief? Am I missing how you've meant this to be conveyed? Get away from these folks & this thinking, is all I have to say. I have read rude statements on message boards, but, honestly, not one of us knows who's on the other side of the keyboard. I do dismiss many of these message board outbursts as pranks & remind myself that it's highly probable they would not be friends of mine had we met in person. I don't draw these people to me & in the off chance someone is rude in addressing me or others around me, I thank them for revealing themselves upfront. This way, they've wasted none of my time in getting to know them further & they can surround themselves with like minded folks who share their beliefs.

Oh no! It's definitely not an "all White people are" statement. Those that I know on a personal level that are White as I am are not that way. But, in day to day encounters with people at work or people I may run into, these things come out. Being White myself, a White person that I don't even know may feel at liberty to make certain racial comments. And then I've got to deal with how I will respond. Plus, when you've visited a number of internet boards, where else can you communicate with individuals from all over the country in the course of an evening? There's just certain common theme's that come out when discussing racial issues. Racism is a general problem in the U.S. It's not something you can really place statistics on by in terms of percentages. Not too many people would answer 'yes' to a questionaire. Plus, there's different variations, some more subtle. And most of us have a form of it, whether consciously or not.

All of us need to take care in what we say. This also means not forcing opinions or beliefs on others. There are forums on this board that I don't venture into, because I'm not interested and/or people can be forceful with their opinions & not mindful of others' feelings. I saw that before separate rooms were created & the posts were all mingled together. I'm glad they're now compartmentalized. Perhaps others will lable me segregationist, but so be it, they're entitled to think as they choose. I feel I'm being respectful by not jumping into the room & telling them they shouldn't discuss xxx. I think not assuming, respecting & compassion are the key to it all. Lacking that, no one wants to listen to what we feel the need to share, no matter how important the issue to us.

I agree we should take care in what we say. But fortunately, no one can force their opinion on anyone else. And I also agree that not assuming is an attribute. I think you do quite well in that regards in that you ask what one means. And respecting & compassion as well. But...sometimes things are better stated in a stronger fashion. This is certainly true when dealing with issues of media stereotype for instance. The battle is certainly not on the internet boards so much as it is with those in charge of the media, but internet forums are a good place to extend the message.

[Baltic_Celt]

Hello Martin -

Thank you once again, for your response.

Originally Posted by Martin Karadagian

But, in day to day encounters with people at work or people I may run into, these things come out. Being White myself, a White person that I don't even know may feel at liberty to make certain racial comments. And then I've got to deal with how I will respond. Plus, when you've visited a number of internet boards, where else can you communicate with individuals from all over the country in the course of an evening?

I'm very sorry to hear this, particularly comments made face to face. That's very disappointing to hear. I'm not saying I've never heard nasty, demeaning comments, just not often. I think the shocked, dismayed expression on my face would curtail conversation & the person would just move on. Re: message boards, I've only been on a few work-related boards & never remain longer than to find the info I need, so wasn't aware racial comments were so widespread online. I have read unnecessary, unpleasant & frankly, immature comments & name calling on this site, although overall, people seem to be fairly pleasant. But, I was onboard CD last year & left for 6-mos or more due to not liking the interaction I regularly saw. I'm pleased to say that things seem to have straightened out, much of it by banning posters, I've noticed, which has left nicer folks to converse in a much more relaxed environment. To be honest, I do avoid most threads/posts/posters that seem to incite, as I don't feel the need to feel bad on purpose.

I do fall back on past comments however, that you just don't know to whom you're speaking, so silly comments could be all prank or those trying to stir up troubles, for no reason other than to stir up troubles. Additionally, anyone who's lived in a large city can tell you that a fair amount of unstable folks are amongst us. I agree with you that there's no way to measure %'s or motive & it's sad that people feel the need to say these things at all.

I agree we should take care in what we say. But fortunately, no one can force their opinion on anyone else... But...sometimes things are better stated in a stronger fashion.

This is very true. We decide that which we take in & retain. Although, some are more sensitive, have difficulty in setting personal boundaries or struggle with coping skills, which is a reminder to me to say things in the nicest way possible. Of course, I don't always succeed & in those cases, it's most often by attempting humor with someone I didn't know well & they're unsure how to interpret what I've said. I then remind myself that most imporantly, to apologize is a strength & secondly, the act of forgiving is out of my hands.

Agreed, yes, sometimes strong language is in order. I've done it on this site by addressing someone I felt was childish/mocking/rude in the majority of his posts (not usually to me, but in general to others in the forum) by telling him so & letting him know I'd no longer respond to his posts, the few times he addressed me directly but with incorrect info. I feel I did so with respect, but I was quite firm & direct in making it known how I'd not waste my time being part of rediculous posts/points & it was beneath him to continue to speak to others in this way. Pointless interaction is nothing other than pointless.

And I also agree that not assuming is an attribute. I think you do quite well in that regards in that you ask what one means. And respecting & compassion as well. This is certainly true when dealing with issues of media stereotype for instance. The battle is certainly not on the internet boards so much as it is with those in charge of the media, but internet forums are a good place to extend the message.

Thank you for making such nice comments. I appreciate that very much, Martin.

As someone who hasn't watched TV in so many years I can't count, yes, the media leaves alot to be desired on terrible stereotypes of all sorts. And, just plain bad programming, but that's another post. The few times I've recently been in a public place & seen TV, I've been shocked at how many sitcoms have disrespectful children, a mocking, crass wife & a husband portrayed as a blithering, often-sexist dolt. It just makes me feel so sad watching these things. I wonder how some find this "humor" amusing night after night.

Agreed, respectful debate is always good. This is how we learn. Even if we don't change our opinions (which is not the most important point to any debate), we do learn how to honor another's vastly different point of view by listening & discussing. Not assuming things is most important to achieve this, I believe.

Good dialogue as always. I agree on pretty much all that you've brought to the forefront & appreciate your comments. Hope to speak with you again soon... VV