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View Poll Results: What do you think of feminism?
I approve of feminism 57 58.16%
I strongly disapprove of feminism 41 41.84%
Voters: 98. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 11-19-2009, 12:06 PM
 
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[quote=MsMcQ LV;11692931]
Quote:
Originally Posted by chattypatty View Post
Okay, I 'get' your equation. But I do need to ask you for an example of what you call 'misguided fake causes'. Misguided I can maybe go along with, but to call a cause 'fake' you would have to believe that it means nothing to anyone. Obviously it means (or meant) something to someone or it wouldn't be a 'cause'.
I think there are people who lack integrity, and who adopt or create a cause, not because it really means anything to them or anyone else, but because they are seeking the secondary gains of being an activist of some sort, and they lack the imagination to come up with something compelling. Because there are so many of these kinds of people, it is not difficult to cobble together a group of like-minded ninnies in a hurry.

The area of women's rights is so rich in real and compelling causes, any time someone adopts a cause that is ridiculous and absurd by comparison, they are basically saying that they lack the courage and conviction to join a real fight, to wage a real battle. They want the glory of battle, but not the risks, so that leads to adopting "fake" causes because they are safer.
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Old 11-19-2009, 12:10 PM
 
21,044 posts, read 19,063,158 times
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[quote=MsMcQ LV;11692931]
Quote:
Originally Posted by chattypatty View Post
Okay, I 'get' your equation. But I do need to ask you for an example of what you call 'misguided fake causes'. Misguided I can maybe go along with, but to call a cause 'fake' you would have to believe that it means nothing to anyone. Obviously it means (or meant) something to someone or it wouldn't be a 'cause'.
Could you edit your post so that it doesn't look like the whole quote is mine? thanks.
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Old 11-19-2009, 12:21 PM
 
Location: Las Vegas, NV
3,849 posts, read 3,172,228 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Who?Me?! View Post
Could you edit your post so that it doesn't look like the whole quote is mine? thanks.
I don't know how or why some quoted posts come out like that and when posting I see nothing 'different' about the quote - it's just afterward that I can hit 'edit' and see the formatting and correct it.
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Old 11-19-2009, 12:33 PM
 
Location: Geneva, IL
12,976 posts, read 11,835,507 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chattypatty View Post
Hmmm. By "minding their own business," do you mean that majority of Islamic men who refrain from killing, raping, abusing or otherwise oppressing their neighbor's wife? Laws in Islamic countries do not afford women the basic protections that you and I take for granted. That ugly side of Islam is not to be taken lightly.

Whenever you directly juxtapose one situation (paucity of female elders in civilized Christian churches) with another (horrific human rights abuses in Islam), it is fair for others to conclude that you are making a comparison. Don't expect anyone to be able to read your mind and intuit your true intentions.

As for religious beliefs/practices -- I'm an Orthodox Jewish woman. I was not raised that way, which means I chose that life as an adult. I cover my hair and wear modest clothing. My family is more important than my career. I did not have sex before marriage. There is a whole host of beliefs and practices that my religion shares with Islam. I don't fault Muslim women for covering their hair, dressing modestly, putting their families first, and placing a high premium on sexual virtue. On the contrary! It's the liberals who criticize and demonize Christians and Jews for traditional beliefs at the same time they romanticize and glorify Muslims for those same beliefs! I support Muslim women in THESE choices. I wouldn't tell her to change her beliefs or leave her religion. Similarly, if a woman chooses ("choose" being the operative word) to be a subordinate partner in marriage, I have no issue with that, either. Maybe it works best for that family or that community. I will echo you here: who are we to judge? It's not a matter of having that liberal virtue of tolerating that which I abhor -- I actually believe that some people are happier living a life that I personally might find unsatisfying, and more power to them.

However there are great distinctions between predominantly Christian nations and the Jewish nation, and predominantly Islamic nations, in terms of the laws protecting women's safety and well-being. If, in America, our religious Christian or Jewish husbands decide to get a little wacky on us, we can turn to the law for support and protection. We can divorce him and move on with our lives. That is not true in Islamic countries. Most Islamic countries do not have laws against honor killings and those that do, like Jordan, do not enforce them or, if public attention forces the issue, the killer may get a symbolic slap on the wrist. Note that I have merely mentioned honor killings because that is the most serious offense; it should go without saying that there are no punitive consequences for an entire range of abuses against women which stop short of killing her.

No woman, no matter her religion, wants to be entirely subjugated, oppressed, abused, raped, hurt, or murdered. I find that in many conversations with liberals on this subject, the topic often gets very muddled -- that's because so many anti-religious liberals equate "benign inequalities" in religion with actual human rights abuses. A tradition of covering your hair while a man gets to show his is a benign inequality -- getting whipped for refusing to cover your hair is a human rights abuse. See the difference? This is the same reason so many liberals label every disagreement with their point of view as originating in "hate." (I am not saying you do that, just making an observation.) It's because they cannot distinguish between a different point of view and a hateful point of view.

Anyway, when you discuss church roles that exclude women in the same breath as honor killings in the Islamic world, I feel that you, too, are failing to make critical distinctions. That leads to you making assumptions about me as well. My problem with Islam is not the traditional gender role assignments that reflect male/female inequality through a modern feminist lens; my problem is with them hurting and killing women and having to suffer no consequences from their community, their religious leaders, or their "justice" system.

p.s., thank you for the author recommendations and also for the discussion.
I did not mean to make assumptions about you, and if I did I apologize.

Please also be assured I make no apologies for the way some Muslim women are treated. You seem to think I am condoning it in some way, and I am not.

I guess the question that needs to be asked is what is your suggestion for addressing the issue? We can protest, and shout, and scream, and discuss ad infinitum, but what will result in change? I have already addressed what I believe to be the only option for change in this particular situation, which is empowerment. By supporting Islamic feminists and their causes, and raising awareness, more and more attention is focused on injustices, and more moderate Muslims are forced to enact change. Maybe it's not enough?

By the way, have you ever seen Saira Shah's "Beneath The Veil" on CNN? It's is repeated from time to time, well worth watching, even though a few years old now.
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Old 11-19-2009, 01:10 PM
 
7,139 posts, read 12,920,908 times
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Interesting to see how well a troll post has taken off so quickly via a simpleton's "poll". Looks like maybe several good discussions out of it, otherwise the usual silly, petty "emoting", pitting male against female. And appears even women against women. So many more ways to put a "feminist's" (whatever that means) time to better use ladies. There really are bigger fish to fry, step out of the little box and stir up some real issues. Nothing more to add.

Last edited by lilypad; 11-19-2009 at 01:22 PM..
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Old 11-19-2009, 01:17 PM
 
Location: southern california
55,237 posts, read 72,611,501 times
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the womens movement was founded to right some wrongs.
it resulted in part in doing so.
but the cost to family and marriage was enormous.
largest prison population in the world
a creeping distrust between the sexes that will never be restored
marriage down 50%
divorce up 50%

it used to be "we"
now its only "me me me".
the sky is cryin sing it.
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Old 11-19-2009, 01:25 PM
 
3,007 posts, read 3,264,676 times
Reputation: 2002
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zimbochick View Post
I did not mean to make assumptions about you, and if I did I apologize.

Please also be assured I make no apologies for the way some Muslim women are treated. You seem to think I am condoning it in some way, and I am not.

I guess the question that needs to be asked is what is your suggestion for addressing the issue? We can protest, and shout, and scream, and discuss ad infinitum, but what will result in change? I have already addressed what I believe to be the only option for change in this particular situation, which is empowerment. By supporting Islamic feminists and their causes, and raising awareness, more and more attention is focused on injustices, and more moderate Muslims are forced to enact change. Maybe it's not enough?

By the way, have you ever seen Saira Shah's "Beneath The Veil" on CNN? It's is repeated from time to time, well worth watching, even though a few years old now.
Please also accept my apologies for not being a polite and gracious opponent.

I have not seen that program but I will look for it.

What to do. Well, I hear you when you say that Muslim women don't want to be over-directed by Western women, since they need to find their own voice. But I do think we could speak out more strongly than we have been doing (I say "we" referring to the feminist organizations that are more in the public eye, such as NOW, though I wish everyone would talk more about it). I have read a few articles (I'm sorry I can't remember the names and titles now) coming mostly out of academia that I find just appalling, in which the authors are completely unwilling to call out Islam on its evil. There is no similar reticence when the perpetrator is a Western male or the Christian Church. I fear that political correctness has once again derailed our feminist leaders.

There needs to be a strong moral condemnation of human rights abuses and an approach which -- and I know I'm a broken record here -- again makes the distinctions between benign religious beliefs that modern feminists might find troublesome, vs. actual abuses. Muslim women can easily feel that their entire way of life is attacked and it is not enough to just be silent on the religious matters and assume that they understand we respect their values/practices. When Muslims look at the way Western women live, many are horrified! They, in turn, could easily make the assumption that we think they'd be better off if they engaged in premarital sex, had children out of wedlock and gave them to sitters to watch while they go to work in professions that are not always so modest, etc. Unfortunately, I think that in an effort to not attack their way of life, feminists have refrained from speaking out forcefully on the human rights abuses, as if WE accept that abuses are a legitimate expression of religion, as if WE ourselves cannot make the distinctions. Some say these are fine lines -- I don't know that they are. Certainly there are women in these cultures that have been so abused for so long they don't know any better, and who themselves associate their religion with abuse,but hopefully they will come along under the leadership of their own feminists. But maybe the things we say in our published papers and books and speeches could plant some little seeds in their minds too.

Sadly, the Islamic powermongers are not going to go out without a bloody fight. Muslim men and women who have fought for a reformed version of the religion tend to get murdered pretty brutally and that's an effective deterrent for other brave activists.

There is not much we can do to affect foreign countries (except maybe do some kind of boycotting to protest their human rights abuses?) but there is plenty we can do here in the U.S., where, thankfully, we still have the power of democracy. The malignant side of Islam needs to be opposed forcefully and strongly condemned, just as Nazism or the KKK were condemned. I don't see anyone tiptoeing around neo-Nazis or KKKers, for fear of offending their belief systems! We need to have the courage to say we will not tolerate Islamic practices on our soil if they violate human rights.

Last edited by chattypatty; 11-19-2009 at 01:36 PM..
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Old 11-19-2009, 01:58 PM
 
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Putting this on a broader plane, it seems the whole globe fears the "retribution" of either intentionally or vicariously "offending" some ridiculous tenet of islam. It is quite disgusting to observe. Like the playground bully toying and tormenting any one of his cowardly targets. It has to stop. Since we as a nation are still considered the leader among nations, it would behoove us to make some first steps. Other brave souls, not Americans, such as Geert Wilders and Robert Spencer have already.

Women's organizations have been, shamefully, at the forefront of cowardice (otherwise known as PC) in human rights abuses of women worldwide. Because they are caught between a rock and a hard place with their pathetic and schizoid leftist agendas, they are unable and/or unwilling to do what is morally right....that would be continually to lament, scream, shout, make their voices heard on behalf of abused women in these godforsaken muslim societies. Their aliby: the United Nations already has policies on human rights abuses (joke of the century). Or even more lame: who are we to interfere in another culture's practices? Nice excuses for cowards.

There are a few brave women who ceaselessly uncover the horrific atrocities so many muslim women face: Wafa Sultan, Phyllis Chesler, Brigette Gabriel, Ayaan Hirsi Ali, Irshad Manji. Read, learn, get educated, before it is too late. Stop the pettiness against yourselves and get busy doing something worthwhile.
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Old 11-19-2009, 02:04 PM
 
3,007 posts, read 3,264,676 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lilypad View Post
Putting this on a broader plane, it seems the whole globe fears the "retribution" of either intentionally or vicariously "offending" some ridiculous tenet of islam. It is quite disgusting to observe. Like the playground bully toying and tormenting any one of his cowardly targets. It has to stop. Since we as a nation are still considered the leader among nations, it would behoove us to make some first steps. Other brave souls, not Americans, such as Geert Wilders and Robert Spencer have already.

Women's organizations have been, shamefully, at the forefront of cowardice (otherwise known as PC) in human rights abuses of women worldwide. Because they are caught between a rock and a hard place with their pathetic and schizoid leftist agendas, they are unable and/or unwilling to do what is morally right....that would be continually to lament, scream, shout, make their voices heard on behalf of abused women in these godforsaken muslim societies. Their aliby: the United Nations already has policies on human rights abuses (joke of the century). Or even more lame: who are we to interfere in another culture's practices? Nice excuses for cowards.

There are a few brave women who ceaselessly uncover the horrific atrocities so many muslim women face: Wafa Sultan, Phyllis Chesler, Brigette Gabriel, Ayaan Hirsi Ali, Irshad Manji. Read, learn, get educated, before it is too late. Stop the pettiness against yourselves and get busy doing something worthwhile.
Good post. Dr. Wafa Sultan is one of my heroes. (Nice the way The New York Slimes journalist who interviewed her published her whereabouts, both her residence and her place of work, knowing full well that there was a fatwah on her).

I think this is what I was trying to say but you said it more succinctly.

Be clear on what is objectionable -- then condemn it forcefully. Real horrible bad things must not be protected under the guise of religion.
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Old 11-19-2009, 02:19 PM
 
Location: Geneva, IL
12,976 posts, read 11,835,507 times
Reputation: 14681
Quote:
Originally Posted by chattypatty View Post
Please also accept my apologies for not being a polite and gracious opponent.

I have not seen that program but I will look for it.

What to do. Well, I hear you when you say that Muslim women don't want to be over-directed by Western women, since they need to find their own voice. But I do think we could speak out more strongly than we have been doing (I say "we" referring to the feminist organizations that are more in the public eye, such as NOW, though I wish everyone would talk more about it). I have read a few articles (I'm sorry I can't remember the names and titles now) coming mostly out of academia that I find just appalling, in which the authors are completely unwilling to call out Islam on its evil. There is no similar reticence when the perpetrator is a Western male or the Christian Church. I fear that political correctness has once again derailed our feminist leaders.

There needs to be a strong moral condemnation of human rights abuses and an approach which -- and I know I'm a broken record here -- again makes the distinctions between benign religious beliefs that modern feminists might find troublesome, vs. actual abuses. Muslim women can easily feel that their entire way of life is attacked and it is not enough to just be silent on the religious matters and assume that they understand we respect their values/practices. When Muslims look at the way Western women live, many are horrified! They, in turn, could easily make the assumption that we think they'd be better off if they engaged in premarital sex, had children out of wedlock and gave them to sitters to watch while they go to work in professions that are not always so modest, etc. Unfortunately, I think that in an effort to not attack their way of life, feminists have refrained from speaking out forcefully on the human rights abuses, as if WE accept that abuses are a legitimate expression of religion, as if WE ourselves cannot make the distinctions. Some say these are fine lines -- I don't know that they are. Certainly there are women in these cultures that have been so abused for so long they don't know any better, and who themselves associate their religion with abuse,but hopefully they will come along under the leadership of their own feminists. But maybe the things we say in our published papers and books and speeches could plant some little seeds in their minds too.

Sadly, the Islamic powermongers are not going to go out without a bloody fight. Muslim men and women who have fought for a reformed version of the religion tend to get murdered pretty brutally and that's an effective deterrent for other brave activists.

There is not much we can do to affect foreign countries (except maybe do some kind of boycotting to protest their human rights abuses?) but there is plenty we can do here in the U.S., where, thankfully, we still have the power of democracy. The malignant side of Islam needs to be opposed forcefully and strongly condemned, just as Nazism or the KKK were condemned. I don't see anyone tiptoeing around neo-Nazis or KKKers, for fear of offending their belief systems! We need to have the courage to say we will not tolerate Islamic practices on our soil if they violate human rights.
I agree that political correctness be damned when it comes to violations of human rights, especially in the US. For the most part I think education and understanding about other cultures and other religions is critical in determining what beliefs are tolerated, and what beliefs are violations or abuses.

I do think some of the issues facing Muslim women, especially in the Middle-East are compounded by the war. I really don't want to get into a debate over the war, but rather the repurcussions for women. For about 8 years I have followed an organization called RAWA, that from conception fought for democracy of all people, but specifically women in Afghanistan. Now they are not just rebelling against fundamentalism, but also US occupation, and have become very militantly anti-American. It is very sad, because they used to have strong ties with feminist organizations in the US, but now not so much. Articles on their website are at times difficult to read, but well worth it.

And also worth mentioning that there are initiatives out there worth supporting, such as The Afghan Women Empowerment Act, S. 229 (http://www.capwiz.com/now/issues/alert/?alertid=13935851 - broken link).
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