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This comment by Fleet is in regards to the death penalty; I myself am a left-wing liberal who has very mixed feelings about the death penalty. I don't agree that the government is never justified in putting someone to death so, in principle, I don't have a problem with the death penalty in the abstract. However, I do have a huge problem with the way the death penalty is implemented here in the US and if given the choice between maintaining the death penalty as is and banning the death penalty completely I'd support the ban. Now, if the death penalty were reformed I would be more apt to support it. The problem is that it is not applied uniformly; in some states it's relatively easy to get put to death, in others you can't be put to death at all. Furthermore, it's pretty much been proven that the death penalty is much more likely to be used against minorities and the poor; this is egregiously unjust (so your notion that the death penalty is justice is definitely problematic, at least in light of the way the death penalty is handled here). Furthermore, the death penalty is often used when the evidence against the person to be executed is less than conclusive; this should not be the case.
Finally, I think the death penalty should only be used for 'extreme' crimes; it's use should be more restricted than it currently is. In my opinion, the death penalty is only just when used against those who have either committed crimes against humanity (genocide; I believe that it was just to execute Saddam Hussein, I think it would be just to execute Mugabe and Kim Jong-il) or for those who commit pre-meditated murder without any sense of guilt (mostly serial killers or those who murder and torture). In no other case would I support the death penalty.
My biggest problem with your position is that you equate the death penalty to justice without any justification or reservation; you don't mention the problems that I mentioned above and don't offer a reason why you consider it justice. I see it as just because I believe that in committing crimes against humanity you forfeit your own humanity. However, I'm an atheist; it seems to me that the commandment "Thou Shalt Not Kill" seems to indicate that taking a Christian approach to the death penalty necessitates taking an anti-death penalty position. The way you put it also seems so absolute, as if you really honestly believe that you have been so honored as to be endowed with a perfect understanding of what justice entails and that anyone who disagrees just can't see the light, can't see the truth you've been blessed with. I, for one, am not so sure of the legitimacy of my position, I know I believe it but I have doubts regarding my ability to fully perceive the nature of justice. Such doubt allows my thoughts to evolve over the time; absolute faith in your opinion precludes such a possibility and I find that rather... well, arrogant and perhaps even dangerous.
The only thing I don't like about the death penalty is that it should be used more.
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As a gay man I clearly take offense to this. I really believe that Christians who take this position are rather hypocritical and have failed to critically think over the issue with an objective mind. For one, the famed passage that seemingly refers to homosexual acts as a sin is in the same book of the Bible (Leviticus) that says eating shell-fish is an abomination against God, that says that lying in the same bed as a woman who is menstruating is an abomination, that says wearing polyblended clothing is a terrible sin. Now, it is extremely hypocritical to pick and choose which passages one will follow; if you are going to call homosexuality a sin based on the Bible then you damn well better feel just as strongly about those who eat oysters, those who wear clothing made out of a mixture of wool and cotton, about being in the same be as your wife when it's that special time of the month. I have yet to hear a Christian give a satisfactory response to this problem; they'd rather pick and choose which verses to follow based on their own deeply held cultural prejudices. They fail to recognize that evangelical fundamentalist Christianity today doesn't even remotely resemble Christianity circa the centuries immediately following the life and death of Jesus Christ. They fail to recognize that their views don't always reflect what the Bible actually says and that much of the far-right views they espouse come from the Old, rather than the somewhat more 'liberal' New, Testament (assuming, of course, that terms like conservative and liberal aren't too anachronistic for this discussion).
Additionally, I've yet to hear a good reason given by a Christian for why homosexuality is bad and immoral other than because the Bible says so. My problem is that relying on a book for moral advice shows a lack of critical thought or real morality. If you don't do something for no other reason than because a book told you are you really moral? If you act 'morally' only out of fear of eternal damnation, are you really moral or are you just scared and self-interested? Why is homosexuality bad? What are the criteria by which something becomes immoral? Simply saying that its because God says so isn't a good response, shouldn't morality be based on some sort of reasoning?
No offense intended. According to my religion and beliefs, homosexuality is a sin and I have every right to think so.
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What would you do in their situation?
I would try to immigrate to the U.S. legally.
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You speak of justice but is it just that so many people in this world suffer terribly simply because they were unfortunate enough to be born in the wrong country? You know, 1 billion people live on less than a dollar a day and another billion live on less than 2 dollars a day. Approximately 900 million people, most of whom are women and children, are chronically malnourished. It's no wonder that these people are willing to go to extremes to secure better lives for themselves and their families. If you want to talk about justice then where is the concern for these individuals; isn't it unjust to prohibit these people from having an easier time coming to places like the US to improve their lives? Also, I'm guessing you find many of our laws 'unjust' due to them being in contradiction to your own religious beliefs so you probably don't mind people breaking some of those laws. I may be wrong, but if that's the case then again you are picking and choosing which laws you want to follow. If this is the case then you are either being hypocritical or your problem really isn't that they are breaking the law, it must be something else.
The U.S. already accepts more (legal) immigrants than any other country. We can't help the entire world! If you are so concerned about those in other countries, leave your address and I'll send 10 or 20 to your house.
look i'm not gonna continue this because it not the point but I am pretty sure native americans had laws of a different nature against what happened to them.
wow...just wow... Was it called the United States of America then?
Re-read the thread man. I know a ton about christianity. It was forced down my throat for 12 years of school by hypocrites. This is another tactic for you to try to discredit me even though you can't. I probably know more about christianity than half the posters on here defending the religion.
If you have any actual response I would love to hear it.
Why don't YOU stop deflecting by telling everyone else that they are deflecting or trying to discredit you?
Why don't you answer posts that are replying to your rants and tell all what you think you know after having spent so many years schoolin' up on Christianity?
Like science has never been proven wrong?
Personally I do believe that people are born gay but again science has been wrong before so I think it is pretty wrong of you to call people hypocrites based solely what YOU feel is correct science.
Its not about what I feel it's about what science has shown. So if you argue gravity, centrifugal force, laws of physics shall that be ok too and not considered ignorant?
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Originally Posted by Cyber Queen
I did not say "good" people will not go to Heaven. No human is a good person, none are worthy of Heaven it is only through the Grace and Forgiveness of God are we allowed access to Heaven. If you think that just doing "good" things is a ticket to Heaven you are wrong because no man is perfect we all sin and it is about what you believe in your heart not what you do everyday. God wants us to trust in Him to look to Him for guidance and that shows or faith in Him. If you live your life as YOU think you should verses how you think God would want you are not getting into Heaven Christian or not. The best way I can explain it is like this. Every choice I make I look to God for guidance and pray that I chose the way He would want me to. That is very different them a person who says they believe in Jesus but do not look to Him for guidance. They are believes in words only, they will NOT get into Heaven because at the end of the day it is not about us it is about our faith in Him.
this is such a indoctrinated way of viewing the world. It's more about believing than doing good? Yeah makes sense. I forgot that christians believe we are born as inherently bad people and need god to fix us.
I cant even continue to fight this because it is such obvious mind control it is not even funny.
The only group I hate that you listed are the criminals on death row. I hate them for the pain, suffering, misery. and ultimate violation they caused their victims and the victims loved ones. The murderers deserve to be executed and there is plenty in the bible to support that position.
I don't hate gays at all, I just don't think they should be married. I don't hate illegal immigrants, they are generally good people. it's the law that needs to be enforced. I don't hate blacks. There are lot's of good black folks. I reserve my hatred towards bad individuals, regardless of race.
There are Christians who subscribe to your love everyone, never judge anyone belief system. They are called the Christian left. They are really no different than the secular humanists except for the fact that they believe in God. Both the secularists and the Christian left have led us down the road of moral relativism which is destroying our civility and will eventually be the downfall of western civilization itself.
yes the moral relativism punch word from the right....getting old... try thinking for yourself
For the spiritual part of you and eternal significance, yes it is more important. The rest of it won't amount to a hill of beans. I know to some that doesn't make any sense. It didn't to me, when I was of a persuasion similar to yours. Nice as it is here in this life for us to be "good" to each other and do good, eternally it has no reward unless you hold the Key to the gates of Heaven = Christ. Therefore, SOME good people will go to heaven, but not all good people (and not all who call themselves Chrisitian will go to heaven either.)
In response to your jesus saying he is the only way.....
please tell me you do realize the bible was not written by jesus and was written long after he was dead?
Talk about a confused way to live. Doing good means nothing. Believing in a fable and a book written to teach lessons, not be taken literally, means everything
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. I forgot that christians believe we are born as inherently bad people and need god to fix us.
