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Old 12-12-2009, 10:23 AM
 
4,474 posts, read 5,398,513 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Peterson View Post
From the Declaration of Independence

"That these united colonies are, and of right ought to be free and independent states; that they are absolved of all allegiance to the British Crown, and that all political connection between them and the State of Great Britain, is and ought to be totally dissolved; and that as free and independent states, they have full power to levy war, conclude peace, contract alliances, establish commerce, and to do all other acts and things which independent states may of right do."

The Articles of Confederation in 1781 did prohibit secession

“Each state retains its sovereignty, freedom, and independence, and every power, jurisdiction, and right, which is not by this confederation expressly delegated to the United States, in Congress assembled.” The Article also prohibited the secession of any member state (“the union shall be perpetual,” Article XIII) unless all of the states agreed to dissolve the Articles."

But 6 years later The Articles of Confederation were replaced with The U.S. Constitution which did not include a clause for a "Perpetual Union" nor any restriction on secession.

In 1814 The Federalist Party held a secession convention in New England.
There were also 2 other threats of secession by New England.

After the Civil War, Jefferson Davis, the President of the Confederacy, was arrested for treason. The Chief Justice of the Supreme Court told President Johnson that if Davis was tried for treason that the U.S. would lose because there was nothing in the Constitution that forbids secession.

So to sum it up, the southern states secession was completely lawful and had they been allowed to leave as the Constitution allowed there would have been no conflict.
Well said, sir.

As a point in history, Commander Henry Wirz, now technically a civilian as is every other psot-war CSA officer, was tried in a military tribunual supposedly for the conditions at "Andersonville" (Fort Sumter at the time).

Despite the Union's Star Witness being outed by Union officers as a northern deserter, and those same Union officers signing an affidavit praising Wirz for his monumental efforts to ease the suffering at a POW camp on the loosing side of a war of attricion, and requesting the trial be stopped, Wirz was found guilty and hanged illegally.

The entire trial took place in an effort to get Wirz to implicate Jefferson Davis in several invented crimes, including fictional orders for the treament of prisoners at Fort Sumter.

 
Old 12-12-2009, 10:37 AM
 
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Also, as a public service announcment...

I've seen these on Ebay, and in person when a few individuals have brought them to be appraised.

Badges and belt buckles "hand stamped" with the legend "Andersonville 2 Guard" across the top in three seperate lines, and "Confederate States of America" crowded together near the bottom, and sold as "authentic".

It is unclear whether these were manufactured as souveniers in the early 1900's, or if they are a clear attempt at fraud.

However, whether buckle or badge, all have the same exact "hand stamped errors" with a dropping of the word line near the end of Andersoneville.

All are stamped with the number 2.

The prison was also known as Fort Sumter by teh CSA during it's operation, not Andersonville, Union prisoners called it Andersonville after the small town of Anderson Station, which was close by and where POW's arrived by train.

The guards were not issued badges, nor special belt buckles.

So, while a simple and amusing souvenier, don't be conned into thinking these are authentic in any manner.
 
Old 12-12-2009, 11:25 AM
 
9,879 posts, read 7,986,526 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AxisMundi View Post
Your knowledge equals squat.

There is no such thing as a "confederate flag".

And all you people did was to do Georgia the greatest of disservices. I have family in GA and visit regularly. The vast majority of people who talked about it were in shock, the average Joe and Jane Doe on the streets. Black or white, they LIKED the GA flag, and you people never even put it up to a public referendum.

All you have accomplished is to further the cause of black racist organizations, spreading and instilling white guilt into America, so people like Jackson and Sharpton, and organizations like the NAACP, can remain politically active and retain political power.
Your absolutely right. There were many flags during the Confederacy. I happen to like "Mississippi's" the best Yours isn't bad either
 
Old 12-12-2009, 11:32 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pollyrobin View Post
Your absolutely right. There were many flags during the Confederacy. I happen to like "Mississippi's" the best Yours isn't bad either
Took me a moment to get the "Yours isn't bad either".

I was born and raised in NY, though I have family across the South.

I do like the Southern Cross, however. It is a full featured flag without being overly busy, like NY's. It is easily visible from a distance in all lighting conditions without being gaudy. I think the colors chosen, the shade of red particularly, is simply pleasing to the eye and compliment each other.

I believe it would've made a much better National than the 2nd and 3rd.
 
Old 12-12-2009, 12:37 PM
 
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No doubt the Flags of the Confederacy are controversial. Offensive - sign of racism & Jim Crow Laws

Or Heritage - southern culture

Or Freedom - freedom from oppression of government and freedom of speech.

Or - Pride of a State:
Recently, Mississippi National Guard troops in Iraq at Camp Stryker who displayed the MS State Flag were told to take it down.

The flags of the confederacy will be debated until .......

But it is History. You know what they say - If you forget history it has a tendency of repeating itself.
 
Old 12-12-2009, 01:00 PM
 
Location: Pasadena
7,411 posts, read 10,331,330 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pollyrobin View Post
No doubt the Flags of the Confederacy are controversial. Offensive - sign of racism & Jim Crow Laws

Or Heritage - southern culture

Or Freedom - freedom from oppression of government and freedom of speech.

Or - Pride of a State:
Recently, Mississippi National Guard troops in Iraq at Camp Stryker who displayed the MS State Flag were told to take it down.

The flags of the confederacy will be debated until .......

But it is History. You know what they say - If you forget history it has a tendency of repeating itself.
Don't get all anti-immigration then when you see flags of Mexico all over Los Angeles. I am latino but my national flag is the American flag. Can't understand how confederates can claim both the enemy's flag & the American flag!
 
Old 12-12-2009, 01:13 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by californio sur View Post
I am latino but my national flag is the American flag.
And I hope you display it proudly.
 
Old 12-12-2009, 01:26 PM
 
10,238 posts, read 19,526,645 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CityPerson09 View Post
If the CSA decided to call themselves "The real United States no matter what!" it wouldn't of made a difference because they were the ones which left.


So are you saying the northern states were the true United States?

If so, how so? Because they kept the name by default? Otherwise, what claim did they have to be the true heir of the principles and titles articulated by the DOI and the Constitution (mostly written by Southern men)....and reflects the title of United States? I'd like to hear this one....
 
Old 12-12-2009, 01:31 PM
 
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The Flag of the State of Mississippi was adopted by the U.S. state of Mississippi in 1894. It is currently the only United States state flag that incorporates the Battle Flag of the Confederacy.

In 2000, the Supreme Court of Mississippi ruled that state legislation in 1906 had repealed the adoption of the state flag in 1894, so what was considered to be the official state flag was only so through custom and usage.

Governor Ronnie Musgrove appointed an independent commission which developed a new proposed design and on April 17, 2001, a state referendum to change the flag was put before Mississippi voters. The proposal would have replaced the Confederate battle flag with a blue canton with 20 stars. The outer ring of 13 stars would represent the original Thirteen Colonies, the ring of six stars would represent the six nations that have had sovereignty over Mississippi territory (Indian nations, France, Spain, Great Britain, the United States, and the Confederate States), and the inner and slightly larger star would represent Mississippi itself. The 20 stars would also represent Mississippi's status as the 20th member of the United States. The new flag was soundly defeated in a vote of 65% to 35% and the old flag was retained.

A lot of folks want to go back to the "Magnolia Flag" which was the State Flag up until 1894. We will see.
 
Old 12-12-2009, 01:38 PM
 
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I used to fly the Confederate battle flag because of my love for the history of the confederacy. But that said the flag has been hijacked by far right wing racist's like the Arian nation among others. I took my flag down because I did not want to be lumped in with the low intelligent minded people who flew this flag in some protest against things they did not even have a basic understanding of. As far as being related to Lee, it is funny how everyone is related to Lee or Jessie James bla bla bla. It is possible but it does not really carry any weight with me unless I saw proof positive beyond anecdotal provenance. Most people who fly it now are racist and just do not have the guts to admit it. First of it is a battle flag not the confederate flag, Most southern people do not know the difference between the first national and the third national flag and think that the battle flag is the confederate flag. I think as far as it coming down of state capitols, it would show progression, the battle flag is a sign of rebellion and not really proper for current government buildings, on any historical site it is perfectly proper as a historical display and reenacting. The problem is the same in the community I also collect in the third Reich military collecting, I collect for history and many have a latent love of the ideology, just as many have a love of the racist southern history and fly the battle flag to support that agenda just under the surface and try to white wash it with the "its historical" line of BS.
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