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So please explain why the American revolution and WWII were good wars?
The Civil war and WWII have a lot in common. Neither war was started for any noble reasons, they only became noble after the fact.
Well, Hitler was trying to march his way throughout Europe and mold it the way he saw it should be by oppressing people. I think that is a good enough reason to fight against another. Then you had the Japanese who bombed our naval base and destroyed lives and property. So, I think it was "good" that Hitler didn't succeed and that Japan didn't reach our coasts and that they couldn't continue pillaging and raping the rest of Asia and all those other small islands and their inhabitants.
These kinds of questions are really provovative, and after many years of being ten foot tall and bulletproof, I have come to the only humanly decent conclusion that war can only be a last resort.
It's easy to hear the celebrities and talk show flunkies promote their side, either for or against, and be sucked in by the propoganda and pep rallies. Most comments are given with less forethought than used before buying a car. The whole unintended consequences thing, blowback for generations. What about the poor bastard who is tasked with waging the war being promoted as 'necessary to the national security of the United States'?
I'm a used up has been, and don't hear the trumpets and drums like I did before. War is a terrible and ugly thing, therefore the only good war can be the war of defense. In that case, the war should be carried out as quickly, brutally, and hellishly as possible. Without remorse, without cheerleading, without rebuilding the loser.
War today is not about that. War today is about control of natural resources and employment numbers. War today is about centralized government control over people who have to be reminded that they are free. No glory in any of that.
I don't know about the rest of you, but I'm not nearly as proud of my "service" as I used be.
there is nothing wrong with being a patriot!
i agree with you 100% on the reasons for war today, and why this "war" is SO useless. it is really a skirmish and having a pull out timeline is, by definition, insane.
the united states went nuclear to win the last big war, but LOST their last skirmish, considering that we are traveling around the world to engage this enemy. as i said before, from childhood you learn that it is a lot harder to attack the fort than to defend the fort.
americans should have to pay an assessed tax to fight these skirmishes, (equivalent to its actual cost) impacting every single american, even those on assistance, and then we will see how important this threat of terrorism looms to the average american. again, not one person has addressed the issue of why are borders are open if we are so concerned about the threat of terrorism impacting the united states. the cost of war is huge, both financially and in terms of losing some of our most productive citizens.
americans should have to pay an assessed tax to fight these skirmishes, (equivalent to its actual cost) impacting every single american, even those on assistance, and then we will see how important this threat of terrorism looms to the average american. again, not one person has addressed the issue of why are borders are open if we are so concerned about the threat of terrorism impacting the united states. the cost of war is huge, both financially and in terms of losing some of our most productive citizens.
Hate to tell you, but not a lot of people can pay the current taxes, and you think that others will want to have an increased tax as well? War is bad, but not being able to even support your self so that you may one day beable to help those fighting is even worse.
You may be able to pay the taxes, then help fight the ones fighting, but I know I sure as hell cant, neither can my parents, nor a lot of people at this time tha tI know due to the current economy. Then, when I am starved to death, there will be one less person to help fight the enemy when they come marching onto our door step due to not having any money to buy food, and the essentials.
Well, Hitler was trying to march his way throughout Europe and mold it the way he saw it should be by oppressing people. I think that is a good enough reason to fight against another. Then you had the Japanese who bombed our naval base and destroyed lives and property. So, I think it was "good" that Hitler didn't succeed and that Japan didn't reach our coasts and that they couldn't continue pillaging and raping the rest of Asia and all those other small islands and their inhabitants.
No Hitler was not. You should actually go read about WWII. Here is what happened.
Hitler took Austria(where he was born), without much opposition at all. The Austrians basically are Germans, and speak German. The Austrians weren't really taken by force, Hitler basically just annexed it into part of Germany.
After that Hitler took part of Czechloslovakia, the part that was heavily inhabited by Germans already, called the Sudetenland. Hungary and even Poland annexed territories from Czechloslovakia also. And part of it was also broke off as a separate country called slovakia.
Then Germany, who had surrounded Poland by that point, turned its aims to take back to part of Germany they lost after WWI. This was western Poland and the free city of Danzig. Which was 95% German.
The silly part of it was, Poland signed the Anglo-Polish agreement. Where Britain would protect Poland if it were invaded. Well it wasn't just the Germans that invaded Poland, it was also the Soviet Union.
But Britain became an ally with the Soviet Union, but they declared war on Germany. Germany asked the British many times to be its ally. But the allies thought Hitler was a bigger threat than Communism. They guessed wrong. Remember the Cold War? Vietnam? Korea? China?
The Lebensraum he sought lay to the east of Germany, not to the west. The Germans did not seek to “conquer the world,” despite frequent claims to that effect, and in any event, they lacked the means to achieve such a conquest.
In fact, France declared war on Germany, not the other way around. France just didn't invade Germany, so Germany kicked the crap out of France. Then again they appealed for the British to be their ally.
The only way to legitimize WWII, most people want to believe either..
A) That Germany threatened America directly, through this notion that Germany wanted to "take over the world". Which if was true, they would have had zero allies.
B) That we went into the war to protect the Jews? The jews weren't being killed till after we got involved in WWII. The Final solution didn't start until 1942, we entered the war at the end of 1941.
People also rarely talk about the Soviet Union and the fact that THEY WERE OUR ALLIES. We talk about how Hitler killed 6 million jews almost daily, but Stalin killed 40-60 million people through executions, and starvation in the Soviet Union.
I am sorry, but WWII was such a completely unnecessary war its unbelievable. Germany only wanted to fight the Soviet Union. Why the West got involved in the war had only to do with the fear that Germany would become more powerful than the great British Empire. All the crap you read in school is such revisionist crap.
Last edited by Redshadowz; 12-17-2009 at 04:07 PM..
No Hitler was not. You should actually go read about WWII. Here is what happened.
Hitler took Austria(where he was born), without much opposition at all. The Austrians basically are Germans, and speak German. The Austrians weren't really taken by force, Hitler basically just annexed it into part of Germany.
After that Hitler took part of Czechloslovakia, the part that was heavily inhabited by Germans already, called the Sudetenland. Hungary and even Poland annexed territories from Czechloslovakia also. And part of it was also broke off as a separate country called slovakia.
Then Germany, who had surrounded Poland by that point, turned its aims to take back to part of Germany they lost after WWI. This was western Poland and the free city of Danzig. Which was 95% German.
The silly part of it was, Poland signed the Anglo-Polish agreement. Where Britain would protect Poland if it were invaded. Well it wasn't just the Germans that invaded Poland, it was also the Soviet Union.
But Britain became an ally with the Soviet Union, but they declared war on Germany. Germany asked the British many times to be its ally. But the allies thought Hitler was a bigger threat than Communism. They guessed wrong. Remember the Cold War? Vietnam? Korea? China?
In fact, France declared war on Germany, not the other way around. France just didn't invade Germany, so Germany kicked the crap out of France. Then again they appealed for the British to be their ally.
The only way to legitimize WWII, most people want to believe either..
A) That Germany threatened America directly, through this notion that Germany wanted to "take over the world". Which if was true, they would have had zero allies.
B) That we went into the war to protect the Jews? The jews weren't being killed till after we got involved in WWII. The Final solution didn't start until 1942, we entered the war at the end of 1941.
People also rarely talk about the Soviet Union and the fact that THEY WERE OUR ALLIES. We talk about how Hitler killed 6 million jews almost daily, but Stalin killed 40-60 million people through executions, and starvation in the Soviet Union.
I'm with you all the way up to here:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Redshadowz
I am sorry, but WWII was such a completely unnecessary war its unbelievable. Germany only wanted to fight the Soviet Union. Why the West got involved in the war had only to do with the fear that Germany would become more powerful than the great British Empire. All the crap you read in school is such revisionist crap.
You seem to be contradicted yourself. Am I to gather you think WWII was avoidable?
No Hitler was not. You should actually go read about WWII. Here is what happened.
Hitler took Austria(where he was born), without much opposition at all. The Austrians basically are Germans, and speak German. The Austrians weren't really taken by force, Hitler basically just annexed it into part of Germany.
After that Hitler took part of Czechloslovakia, the part that was heavily inhabited by Germans already, called the Sudetenland. Hungary and even Poland annexed territories from Czechloslovakia also. And part of it was also broke off as a separate country called slovakia.
Then Germany, who had surrounded Poland by that point, turned its aims to take back to part of Germany they lost after WWI. This was western Poland and the free city of Danzig. Which was 95% German.
The silly part of it was, Poland signed the Anglo-Polish agreement. Where Britain would protect Poland if it were invaded. Well it wasn't just the Germans that invaded Poland, it was also the Soviet Union.
But Britain became an ally with the Soviet Union, but they declared war on Germany. Germany asked the British many times to be its ally. But the allies thought Hitler was a bigger threat than Communism. They guessed wrong. Remember the Cold War? Vietnam? Korea? China?
In fact, France declared war on Germany, not the other way around. France just didn't invade Germany, so Germany kicked the crap out of France. Then again they appealed for the British to be their ally.
The only way to legitimize WWII, most people want to believe either..
A) That Germany threatened America directly, through this notion that Germany wanted to "take over the world". Which if was true, they would have had zero allies.
B) That we went into the war to protect the Jews? The jews weren't being killed till after we got involved in WWII. The Final solution didn't start until 1942, we entered the war at the end of 1941.
People also rarely talk about the Soviet Union and the fact that THEY WERE OUR ALLIES. We talk about how Hitler killed 6 million jews almost daily, but Stalin killed 40-60 million people through executions, and starvation in the Soviet Union.
I'm with you all the way up to here:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Redshadowz
I am sorry, but WWII was such a completely unnecessary war its unbelievable. Germany only wanted to fight the Soviet Union. Why the West got involved in the war had only to do with the fear that Germany would become more powerful than the great British Empire. All the crap you read in school is such revisionist crap.
You seem to be contradicting yourself. Am I to gather you think WWII was avoidable?
How was WWII avoidable? The Italian invasion of Ethiopia, the Chinese civil war, the Japanese invasion of Manchuria and Pacific islands.. The world was erupting in conflict even before the Germans invaded Poland. The British, French, Germans, and Soviets were all engaging in a massive arms buildup throughout the 30s.
No Hitler was not. You should actually go read about WWII. Here is what happened.
Hitler took Austria(where he was born), without much opposition at all. The Austrians basically are Germans, and speak German. The Austrians weren't really taken by force, Hitler basically just annexed it into part of Germany.
After that Hitler took part of Czechloslovakia, the part that was heavily inhabited by Germans already, called the Sudetenland. Hungary and even Poland annexed territories from Czechloslovakia also. And part of it was also broke off as a separate country called slovakia.
Then Germany, who had surrounded Poland by that point, turned its aims to take back to part of Germany they lost after WWI. This was western Poland and the free city of Danzig. Which was 95% German.
The silly part of it was, Poland signed the Anglo-Polish agreement. Where Britain would protect Poland if it were invaded. Well it wasn't just the Germans that invaded Poland, it was also the Soviet Union.
But Britain became an ally with the Soviet Union, but they declared war on Germany. Germany asked the British many times to be its ally. But the allies thought Hitler was a bigger threat than Communism. They guessed wrong. Remember the Cold War? Vietnam? Korea? China?
In fact, France declared war on Germany, not the other way around. France just didn't invade Germany, so Germany kicked the crap out of France. Then again they appealed for the British to be their ally.
The only way to legitimize WWII, most people want to believe either..
A) That Germany threatened America directly, through this notion that Germany wanted to "take over the world". Which if was true, they would have had zero allies.
B) That we went into the war to protect the Jews? The jews weren't being killed till after we got involved in WWII. The Final solution didn't start until 1942, we entered the war at the end of 1941.
People also rarely talk about the Soviet Union and the fact that THEY WERE OUR ALLIES. We talk about how Hitler killed 6 million jews almost daily, but Stalin killed 40-60 million people through executions, and starvation in the Soviet Union.
I am sorry, but WWII was such a completely unnecessary war its unbelievable. Germany only wanted to fight the Soviet Union. Why the West got involved in the war had only to do with the fear that Germany would become more powerful than the great British Empire. All the crap you read in school is such revisionist crap.
Sure, keep telling yourself those things. Your own bias and personal beliefs are causing you to not accept what is obvious. Countries are not so dumb that they don't catch onto a plan such as the plan that Hitler had. So, they went in and they put all that to a halt. How anyone could not agree that this was necessary, I do not understand. It's not black and white ... like you are making. It doesn't take a genius to realize what Hitler and Friends were up to. Simply put, the participating parties were going to sit around and let that happen and decided to halt that.
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