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The problem with all you pro-outsourcers that don't believe in Americans having jobs is who is going to pay for all the free healthcare, the endless unemployment handouts, and welfare for them?
Why all the rich people making $250,001.00 per year, that's who.
There's 6 billion people on this planet, you can't give everyone good jobs installing windshields. It's pipe dream.
Not interested in giving 6 billion people on the planet good jobs. Am interested in taking those jobs away from the ones OUTSIDE the borders of the USA, and giving them to the ones INSIDE the borders of the USA.
I was traveling through Indianapolis earlier this year and caught the news on WIBC about the Evansville Whirpool refrigerator plant closing in December of 2010, and... MOVING TO MEXICO. No, that's not windshields, but those are good jobs and they're leaving. And that is the fault of the income taxes, all of 'em. We get rid of those, we won't be seeing these plants moving to Mexico, or simply going out of business because there's something similar being imported from some 3rd world s***-hole where the workforce gets paid $0.20 / hr.
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Originally Posted by clue
Ridiculous, who's going to supply the capital investment? Who's going to buy them en masse? Who's going to design the products (keeping in mind that a lot of educated PhDs today are foreign)?
We can still design weapons to skewer most of the rest of the world, so designing refrigerators and cars should be no problem. The know-how has not left, it is just working defense department stuff. Wait 'til some of those people that make an Aegis Cruiser capable of knocking an orbiting satellite out of the sky get down to making cell phones, and you're going to see some really neat cell phones.
BTW, there's $10 - $15 trillion of both legally and illegally sequestered / invested American money overseas that is there to hide from the income tax. Get rid of the income tax, and make manufacturing things here tax free, and that money will come rushing back here, and begin building factories for anything you can think of that you might want to buy.
Who's going to buy them en-mass? Americans, that, with the repeal of income taxes, are going to have a great deal more money in their pockets than they do now. I personally sent $17,000 to DC for last year's taxes. If I have that in my pocket, there's going to be a lot more spending going on around my place, I can guarantee you.
And the other component of who is going to buy them en-mass is... the rest of the world. Things manufactured here without being taxed are going to be cheaper than those manufactured with the work-for-peanuts workforce overseas, because our workers are 1) more efficient, 2) have a better work ethic, and 3) our system of untaxed manufacturing is going to get rid of a whale of a lot of the price of things that were going to pay the corporate income tax. IOW, we're going to have the cheap stuff on the market, not the Asians.
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Originally Posted by clue
Tax haven usually means a place where the rich can store money and not worry about, it's not as grandiose as you make out to be.
Well, we're going to have a MANUFACTURING and BUSINESS tax haven. Businesses set up headquarters in Caribbean island nations (Grand Caymen, I believe it is - 0% business tax rate), and manufacturing operations in places like Ireland (12.5% corporate income tax) to save money in those sorts of operations. We're going to be able to beat those with a 0% tax rate, and business headquarters will still be able to be on the same patch of land as the factory, unlike the 0% Caribbean island nation headquarters.
The problem with all you pro-outsourcers that don't believe in Americans having jobs is who is going to pay for all the free healthcare, the endless unemployment handouts, and welfare for them?
There's no such thing as a "pro-outsourcer", but rather those who understand outsourcing is inevitable.
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Originally Posted by rally2xs
Not interested in giving 6 billion people on the planet good jobs. Am interested in taking those jobs away from the ones OUTSIDE the borders of the USA, and giving them to the ones INSIDE the borders of the USA.
Every country needs to develop somehow, US and Washington Consensus has been busy trying to clamp down on poor countries, but eventually they did tell Western economists and bankers to eff off. You can't keep the world poor.
Quote:
Originally Posted by rally2xs
I was traveling through Indianapolis earlier this year and caught the news on WIBC about the Evansville Whirpool refrigerator plant closing in December of 2010, and... MOVING TO MEXICO. No, that's not windshields, but those are good jobs and they're leaving. And that is the fault of the income taxes, all of 'em. We get rid of those, we won't be seeing these plants moving to Mexico, or simply going out of business because there's something similar being imported from some 3rd world s***-hole where the workforce gets paid $0.20 / hr.
Nope. Not income taxes' problem either, many developed countries have income taxes, and their manufacturing capacity is just fine. And please, 3rd world is an antiquated term, that's not in use anymore.
Quote:
Originally Posted by rally2xs
We can still design weapons to skewer most of the rest of the world, so designing refrigerators and cars should be no problem. The know-how has not left, it is just working defense department stuff. Wait 'til some of those people that make an Aegis Cruiser capable of knocking an orbiting satellite out of the sky get down to making cell phones, and you're going to see some really neat cell phones.
Defense budget is $500 billion and plus many more hidden in various department, defense products and consumer products are incomparable. That's more money than most countries' GDP.
Quote:
Originally Posted by rally2xs
BTW, there's $10 - $15 trillion of both legally and illegally sequestered / invested American money overseas that is there to hide from the income tax. Get rid of the income tax, and make manufacturing things here tax free, and that money will come rushing back here, and begin building factories for anything you can think of that you might want to buy.
Uh, no, the money would come back here, but the rich will still hold on to it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by rally2xs
Who's going to buy them en-mass? Americans, that, with the repeal of income taxes, are going to have a great deal more money in their pockets than they do now. I personally sent $17,000 to DC for last year's taxes. If I have that in my pocket, there's going to be a lot more spending going on around my place, I can guarantee you.
And the other component of who is going to buy them en-mass is... the rest of the world. Things manufactured here without being taxed are going to be cheaper than those manufactured with the work-for-peanuts workforce overseas, because our workers are 1) more efficient, 2) have a better work ethic, and 3) our system of untaxed manufacturing is going to get rid of a whale of a lot of the price of things that were going to pay the corporate income tax. IOW, we're going to have the cheap stuff on the market, not the Asians.
Well, we're going to have a MANUFACTURING and BUSINESS tax haven. Businesses set up headquarters in Caribbean island nations (Grand Caymen, I believe it is - 0% business tax rate), and manufacturing operations in places like Ireland (12.5% corporate income tax) to save money in those sorts of operations. We're going to be able to beat those with a 0% tax rate, and business headquarters will still be able to be on the same patch of land as the factory, unlike the 0% Caribbean island nation headquarters.
You're assuming manufacturing has a profitable margin, it doesn't. Like I said before, for every dollar spent, 10% goes to the manufacturer and production line worker. 10%, whether that product is made in US, UK, France, Germany, China, or Indonesia. It's around 10%. Also, nobody has a monopoly on work ethics, efficiency, innovation, or ingenuity, this trait is universal.
Your policies is pretty much neoliberalism: government hands off, minimal tax, privatize this and that, let investors and market run the course without heeding them. Ideally it was suppose to harness manufacturing prowess and retain capital. It has already been tried in other countries as a long term test scenario, it didn't work, it made those countries worse off, so please don't think you're the original one with all the solutions. Every time people think of a great idea, they tend to think that it will happen the way they want it to, they never bother to analyze the unintended consequences of their ideas, and that is where the real trouble arise. Like thinking protectionism will actually help.
There's no such thing as a "pro-outsourcer", but rather those who understand outsourcing is inevitable.
Nothing is inevitable except death and taxes. But we don't have to be taxing income, and if we don't, the outsourcing will be greatly diminished, probably to the level of the 1950's.
Quote:
Originally Posted by clue
Every country needs to develop somehow, US and Washington Consensus has been busy trying to clamp down on poor countries, but eventually they did tell Western economists and bankers to eff off. You can't keep the world poor.
Not trying to keep the world poor. Trying to make Americans prosperous. It _does_ mean bringing those AMERICAN jobs back from overseas, 'cuz they have no business being there. Of course, if foreign manufactuers decide that the USA is the best place to make a buck, then... too bad, work-for-peanuts workforce. Go grow a yam or something, 'cuz that auto assembly job just got outsourced to... Detroit.
Quote:
Originally Posted by clue
Nope. Not income taxes' problem either, many developed countries have income taxes, and their manufacturing capacity is just fine. And please, 3rd world is an antiquated term, that's not in use anymore.
I like antiquated terms.
The income tax absolutely _is_ adding so much burden to American manufacturing that it is the chief expense that causes manufacturers to decide to leave the USA and manufacture overseas. For instance:
It takes about 30 - 33 hrs of labor to build an American car, depending on which of our big 3 auto makers you're talking about. Figure the labor at the fairly inflated figure that the auto companies were claiming of $78 / hr, and a car that takes 30 labor-hrs to build would have a labor cost of $2,340. A car that took 33 labor-hrs to build would cost $2,574.
However, the American manufactuerers are handling a 35% - 39% corporate income tax while building things in this country. Yeah, they don't necessarily pay all of that, but they get away with that by hiring a phalanx of attorneys, actuaries, and other smart people that allow them to operate at an optimum tax-posture mode to avoid as many taxes as possible. I've read that that phalanx costs about 75% of the tax money it saves, so there's still a whale of an expense to go along with paying corporate income tax in the USA.
So, how about we figure a paltry 10% of the price of vehicles being the expense of that 35% - 39% income tax? I mean, businesses don't have any other source of $$$, other than their sales, and these guys sell cars.
So, supposing that there's a 10% tax burden on the price of that Jeep Liberty, built in Toledo, Ohio, then The former $25,000 Jeep would sell for $22,500. But, since there's anywhere from $2,340 - $2,575 labor bill in the price of the Jeep, then removing the income tax would be roughly the same as clamping chains on all our $30/hr union workers and forcing them to work as slaves, for $0 / hr.
Could our $0 / hr workforce beat overseas $0.20 / hr workforce? You bet. For one thing, there's a smaller transportation cost.
But the bottom line is that the income tax is easily cause for as much or more expense to the American manufacturer as is his entire labor force expense.
Quote:
Originally Posted by clue
Defense budget is $500 billion and plus many more hidden in various department, defense products and consumer products are incomparable. That's more money than most countries' GDP.
They are quite comparable. They both take a lotta smart guys to make the science-magic happen, and the DoD has them right now. When the private industry markets for electronics and other neat products, such as airplanes, returns to the USA, since their maufacture is profitable in the USA again, those engineers and scientists will come pouring out of those defense plants, and get to the problem of building world-beating consumer products. And yes, they can do it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by clue
Uh, no, the money would come back here, but the rich will still hold on to it.
Uh, get real. You're poor if you work for your money. You're rich if your money works for you. That's the point - they will take that money, and put it in banks, US banks, and those banks will lend it to enterpreneurs, who will build all these factories. No sane rich person puts his money in a mattress. The really smart ones get involved in building the factory themselves...
Quote:
Originally Posted by clue
You're assuming manufacturing has a profitable margin, it doesn't. Like I said before, for every dollar spent, 10% goes to the manufacturer and production line worker. 10%, whether that product is made in US, UK, France, Germany, China, or Indonesia. It's around 10%. Also, nobody has a monopoly on work ethics, efficiency, innovation, or ingenuity, this trait is universal.
You hit the nail on the head - the cost of labor in manufacturing is quite small, maybe even your 10%. But the cost of the statutory 35% US income tax, highest on the plant, is chasing manufacturing out of this country, to "anywhere-but-here." Get rid of the income taxes, and that will stop. Manufacturing will return HERE. That's what we want. Then everyone will have a decent shot at prosperity.
mine will be on the list and soon. btw anybody that sucontracts janitor and garden is already outsourcing to illegals i guarantee. 21 million did not come here to hang out at home depot thats for sure.
Nothing is inevitable except death and taxes. But we don't have to be taxing income, and if we don't, the outsourcing will be greatly diminished, probably to the level of the 1950's.
Not trying to keep the world poor. Trying to make Americans prosperous. It _does_ mean bringing those AMERICAN jobs back from overseas, 'cuz they have no business being there. Of course, if foreign manufactuers decide that the USA is the best place to make a buck, then... too bad, work-for-peanuts workforce. Go grow a yam or something, 'cuz that auto assembly job just got outsourced to... Detroit.
I like antiquated terms.
The income tax absolutely _is_ adding so much burden to American manufacturing that it is the chief expense that causes manufacturers to decide to leave the USA and manufacture overseas. For instance:
It takes about 30 - 33 hrs of labor to build an American car, depending on which of our big 3 auto makers you're talking about. Figure the labor at the fairly inflated figure that the auto companies were claiming of $78 / hr, and a car that takes 30 labor-hrs to build would have a labor cost of $2,340. A car that took 33 labor-hrs to build would cost $2,574.
However, the American manufactuerers are handling a 35% - 39% corporate income tax while building things in this country. Yeah, they don't necessarily pay all of that, but they get away with that by hiring a phalanx of attorneys, actuaries, and other smart people that allow them to operate at an optimum tax-posture mode to avoid as many taxes as possible. I've read that that phalanx costs about 75% of the tax money it saves, so there's still a whale of an expense to go along with paying corporate income tax in the USA.
So, how about we figure a paltry 10% of the price of vehicles being the expense of that 35% - 39% income tax? I mean, businesses don't have any other source of $$$, other than their sales, and these guys sell cars.
So, supposing that there's a 10% tax burden on the price of that Jeep Liberty, built in Toledo, Ohio, then The former $25,000 Jeep would sell for $22,500. But, since there's anywhere from $2,340 - $2,575 labor bill in the price of the Jeep, then removing the income tax would be roughly the same as clamping chains on all our $30/hr union workers and forcing them to work as slaves, for $0 / hr.
Could our $0 / hr workforce beat overseas $0.20 / hr workforce? You bet. For one thing, there's a smaller transportation cost.
But the bottom line is that the income tax is easily cause for as much or more expense to the American manufacturer as is his entire labor force expense.
There's no such thing as an "American" job.
If you like antiquated terms, I hope you don't mind sounding like an idiot.
The income tax is not adding burden to American manufacturing. It just isn't.
For one, it doesn't add much burden to manufacturing in France, Germany, Japan, China, or Taiwan.
Two, you forget the foreign companies who also have their products manufactured in US. It boils down to comparative advantage, product efficiency, and quality.
You can keep repeating to yourself how income tax is the problem, but the rest of the world have already left that ship.
Quote:
Originally Posted by rally2xs
They are quite comparable. They both take a lotta smart guys to make the science-magic happen, and the DoD has them right now. When the private industry markets for electronics and other neat products, such as airplanes, returns to the USA, since their maufacture is profitable in the USA again, those engineers and scientists will come pouring out of those defense plants, and get to the problem of building world-beating consumer products. And yes, they can do it.
They can, but they're not. Manufacturing is not that profitable, companies make more through design and advertising.
Quote:
Originally Posted by rally2xs
Uh, get real. You're poor if you work for your money. You're rich if your money works for you. That's the point - they will take that money, and put it in banks, US banks, and those banks will lend it to enterpreneurs, who will build all these factories. No sane rich person puts his money in a mattress. The really smart ones get involved in building the factory themselves...
Uh, get real. Things don't operate on how you decide it will be. Zero tax has been tried, unless you're insanely resource rich, many sane policy makers don't want to go back to that.
Quote:
Originally Posted by rally2xs
You hit the nail on the head - the cost of labor in manufacturing is quite small, maybe even your 10%. But the cost of the statutory 35% US income tax, highest on the plant, is chasing manufacturing out of this country, to "anywhere-but-here." Get rid of the income taxes, and that will stop. Manufacturing will return HERE. That's what we want. Then everyone will have a decent shot at prosperity.
Let me get this through you one last time, no tax does not mean manufacturing will come back. That's just lunacy, really, countries with manufacturing base such as Vietnam, China, Germany, Japan, etc all have higher corporate tax than US. Your solution has already been debunked in the real world, stop living in fantasy.
Well I will say one thing about this thread. It's generating some rather lengthy posts.
They're about to get dramatically shorter. When people ignore math, when it shows that removing the income tax would be about the same as deleting the cost of the entire workforce, well... I'm basically talking to a wall. The truth is that this country rose from zip to the power it was at the beginning of th 20th century without the "benefit" of an income tax. Now, its supposedly absolutely necessary. Not hardly.
They're about to get dramatically shorter. When people ignore math, when it shows that removing the income tax would be about the same as deleting the cost of the entire workforce, well... I'm basically talking to a wall. The truth is that this country rose from zip to the power it was at the beginning of th 20th century without the "benefit" of an income tax. Now, its supposedly absolutely necessary. Not hardly.
Germany and China are the top exporters in the world ahead of US, and are also manufacturing powerhouse, they have higher corporate tax than US. Your tax argument is shot out of the water. Go focus on something worthwhile: innovation, comparative advantage, and efficiency.
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