U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Politics and Other Controversies
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 12-26-2009, 04:09 PM
 
1,317 posts, read 1,226,352 times
Reputation: 286

Advertisements

Quote:
Originally Posted by rd2007 View Post
not true at all. Compare a Vizio TV with the competition from Japan, Korea, and china. Then compare a Dooney (made in the USA) purse with a chinese made Coach. There are plenty of success stories out there, if you open your eyes and decide to educate yourself.

BTW, look at what you're typing on.. where did the design of the CPU come from and who made the routers that got the words to me and the rest of us?
There's always exceptions but overall . . . what would a GE iron, for example, cost if made in the USA? Simple fact is, GE took their iron manufacturing to another country 'cause Americans were buying off shore brands of equal quality and (much) less cost.

Yes, the Apple and IBM PC were designed in the U.S., so were telephones, cars, TVs, radios (I think) but only some cars are made in the US and even then not as well as some foreign.

I didn't know Vizio was an American brand. Glad to see something is coming back to the U.S. Time will tell how long it will be made in the U.S.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 12-26-2009, 04:20 PM
 
4,510 posts, read 4,117,849 times
Reputation: 1501
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ever Adrift View Post
They aren't 'my' theories, they are the theoretical understandings that underlie modern economics as a discipline. If you are someone who believes that capitalism is 'good' and an engine of economic growth, then the only reason you could validly believe such things is if you base it on the very economic theories that you are putting down. Capitalism is an economic system that functions according to a set of logically related principles. It is these principles which validate notions of capitalism being beneficial to economic welfare. YOU can't be a capitalist while simultaneously deriding the economic theory of Capitalism! You clearly completely lack any understanding of modern economics, rather you seem perfectly happy to complain about something that's occurring without having any understanding of why it is happening, what the consequences of it happening are and what the consequences of attempting to stop it would be. It is irrational to hold such strong beliefs about something for which you have virtually no education on.

What you are arguing is anti-capitalist, it is most certainly anti-consumer and it's anti-economic growth. You'd sacrifice the economic well-being of our country as a whole to try and save jobs for which we have long lost our comparative advantage rather than pursue the policies which could put those workers in better, more productive industries. The kind of protectionism which you seem to so dearly love would hurt the US, it would lead to economic stagnation by slowing economic growth, it would lead to much higher prices for American consumers leading to increased poverty, it would lead to the US falling further and further behind other developed countries in terms of technological innovation, etc.

The major economic theories regarding comparative advantage, trade, government intervention, etc. are not what has gotten us into the current mess; anyone with any formal education in political economy will tell you this. The problem is that government's don't base policy on objective economic assessments, rather most policies are designed and implemented for political, rather than economic, reasons (agricultural subsidies are a perfect example). If the government actually designed policies aimed at meeting the goal of maximizing economic welfare alone then we'd be in a much better position that we are now; instead, political goals often interfere and lead to suboptimal outcomes. The kinds of policies you propose are exactly the kinds of policies aimed at political goals which are hurting our country as a whole.
All of your hot air 'economic' theories mean diddly-squat. Capitalism works better nowadays in Communist China than it does here, because they are actually producing what we used to. Our consumerism and credit-driven economy has fueled their economic growth. The shortsighted 'greedism' that caused CEOs to outsource I.T.jobs, and build factories overseas, has expanded their capitalistic model at our expense. So outsourcing is indeed good for them - but not for us.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 12-26-2009, 04:23 PM
 
24 posts, read 20,592 times
Reputation: 12
Quote:
Originally Posted by clue View Post
Correct. For most of industries outsourced, it actually doesn't make any sense to not outsource them. On top of that, most people also don't understand where their money goes when a product is outsourced. The margin in production for most consumer products are less than 10% of the retail cost, for agricultural products, even less.

It makes no sense to avoid buying products made in other countries, for one: gains from trade, two: consumer sovereignty, and three: it makes economic sense. Economic patriotism is detrimental on the long run, it's disturbing because most don't get it and think "buy American" will actually help. Disasters like GM/Chrysler is an example of what "buy American" will lead to, companies can forgo innovation, efficiency, and outperforming competitors if their customers are loyal enough because the company is "American", but such loyalty only last so long, and when its gone, companies go bankrupted.

This is not to say don't buy American ever, but buy a product for its value, not place of manufacture. Place of manufacture is absolutely meaningless, components sourced for many products today are GLOBAL.
You think that GM/Ford/Chrysler is as successful as they are because of "customer loyalty" based on Nationalism?

How about "customer loyalty" based on things like Jeep just being the best d*** vehicle you want to be in when faced with weather like lots of us had last week? I and my Jeep went anywhere we pleased!

GM/Ford/Chrysler also builds... LARGE CARS! People in this country like large cars, and many abhor the "sorta large" cars from manufacturers like Infinity, Audi, etc. Big SUVs? AMERICAN companies build 'em. Best selling line of trucks in the world? American - Ford F-series. Look for a foreign car with the size of a Lincoln Town Car. LTC trunk space about 19 cubic feet. Next-biggest foreign car trunk space around 13 cubic feet. Infinity, I think it was.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 12-26-2009, 04:33 PM
 
4,510 posts, read 4,117,849 times
Reputation: 1501
Quote:
Originally Posted by HappyTexan View Post
And this all started 40 years ago with the offshoring of manufacturing.
All that is left now is service type jobs where you physically have to touch something. Everything else can be done for a fraction of the cost in some other country and imported here.

The wealth of America's middle class has been drained into the middle class in other countries. The middle class is the driver class, and we aren't driving much anymore. The economy is being propped up by a phony Fed ponzi scheme. The service jobs are servicing the existing dollars in people's bank accounts, which soon will become worth a lot less.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 12-26-2009, 04:47 PM
 
Location: Great State of Texas
86,093 posts, read 72,575,594 times
Reputation: 27566
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ever Adrift View Post
Well, the US education system at the primary and secondary levels is lagging behind virtually all developed countries and, increasingly, many of the upper-middle income developing countries. It's really in dire shape; we simply aren't investing enough in education generally and the investment that we do have is increasingly unequal, with various regions of the country falling further and further behind. We need a general improvement in education: more spending, better paid and better trained teachers, smaller class sizes, longer school years... We need to rely less on standaridized tests, we need to do more to prep students for, and incentivize, college. We need to dramatically improve the way we fund higher education, making it much more affordable. We need to make it easier for adults to go back to school. We need to offer better training programs for jobs that don't require a college degree.

As for specific subject areas, we are really lacking in the 'hard' sciences and mathematics, both of which are becoming increasingly important for the high-tech industries we need to be pursuing.
We are spending plenty of money. Take a look at NCLB though for reasons why we lag. NCLB has turned education into "lower the standards so that no child is left behind".
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 12-26-2009, 04:48 PM
 
24 posts, read 20,592 times
Reputation: 12
Quote:
Originally Posted by rd2007 View Post
I start my MBA next month and had my eyes opened to the "evils of outsourcing" a while ago. Imagine how screwed we'd be if everything in this country was made by a union shop. It would pretty much be like the domestic auto industry x 1,000,000... I'm still trying to figure out how Ford is doing it. Maybe they're somehow cooking the books or something.
How about, "They make great cars?" And the union boogeyman is just the workers banding together to get the company to SHARE UP some of the d*** profits that they produce with their sweat, and in many cases their blood, since that work is inherently dangerous.

Everybody gets all giddy when they squeeze the unions into allowing people to be hired at $15 / hr, but $15 / hr gets a person $31,200 / yr. OK, that's only $5K above the poverty level for a family of 4. What's so great about that? How much are you going to be able to tax that guy so that he can help support the country? How much is he going to be able to buy in order to keep the consumer-driven economy going?

When I got out of high school, I went to college. My friend 2 doors down went into construction, and he was a year behind me in school. In just about 2 years, or a year after his senior year, he comes tooling up in a 427 Corvette. Now, that's buying power. Izzat going to happen under any sort of scenario nowdays? Nope, not likely.

This country is on a long, slow glide-slope to an economic train-wreck. As we squeeze more and more money out of those workers that DON'T WANT to work in laboratories, or ARE NOT SUITED to work in laboratories, or CAN'T AFFORD THE MONEY to get the education to work in laboratories, or CAN'T BENEFIT FROM COLLEGE in order to work in laboratories, we're going to have more and more of the population working at places like Wal Mart, McDonalds, etc. And, they're not going to be driving the economy, they're going to be a drag on it. They're going to need food stamps, and lots of them are just going to quit working and live on a spouse's income, further exacerbating the diminishment of buying power. At least they won't need to pay for child care, but that's about the extent of the benefit of one or the other of them staying home.

I'm 62, and don't believe all you MBA types are half as smart as you think you are. You haven't seen what real prosperity is, I think. It is people working 9 to 5 and making enough money to take the kids on a driving vacation all over the country, seeing the Craters of the Moon National Monument, Bryce Canyon, Yellowstone National Park, Garden of the Gods... lots of great stuff occurring in nature even before seeing the wonders of man like the Seattle Space Needle, Golden Gate Bridge, St. Louis Gateway Arch, etc.

Want to really do something for American to stop all this outsourcing? Get rid of the income taxes - all of them. Abolish the IRS, institute the Fair Tax, and watch the industries that we need - the ones where people that can't benefit from college, the ones that don't want to go into $50,000 of debt to afford it, etc. can still get good jobs installing windshields on cars as they come by on an assembly line, or consumer electronic endeavors that should be done here instead of Seol or Tokyo.

We need to make this country prosperous for all, not just for those that can go to college and get some benefit out of it. We should be building factories by the 1000's, making them run for 3 shifts a day, manufacturing things from cars to cameras, cell phones to televisions, rather than letting everywhere-but-here in this world do it, while too large a percentage of our population lives at or below the poverty line, and would not need to if union jobs were available to build things we need, and the things the rest of the world needs.

Completely untaxed manufacturing - that's what the Fair Tax is, and will result in our being the new, best tax haven on the planet. No more going to Ireland to build things because they have a 12.5% corporate income tax rate. No more beating up the American worker with your work-for-peanuts workforce.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 12-26-2009, 04:49 PM
 
Location: Lafayette, IN
838 posts, read 870,457 times
Reputation: 391
Quote:
Originally Posted by KRAMERCAT View Post
All of your hot air 'economic' theories mean diddly-squat. Capitalism works better nowadays in Communist China than it does here, because they are actually producing what we used to. Our consumerism and credit-driven economy has fueled their economic growth. The shortsighted 'greedism' that caused CEOs to outsource I.T.jobs, and build factories overseas, has expanded their capitalistic model at our expense. So outsourcing is indeed good for them - but not for us.
No, you're just uneducated when it comes to the academic discipline of economics and haven't a clue what you're talking about. The economic theories I've (very, very briefly) discussed explain how economies function both at the micro- and macro- level in great detail, they are excellent at predicting economic outcomes and are supported by countless quantitative and qualitative studies. The arguments underpinning these studies and theoretical understandings are straight-forward and largely demonstrable, the logic is incredibly sound. It is these very theoretical understandings which have helped governments, including the Chinese government, implement policies that have increased their economic growth. These aren't some set of principles made up by some kid; they are sets of interdependent principles that have been developed over several decades by thousands of economists engaged in academic research who have tested hypotheses using a variety of methodological approaches.

The very fact that you seem utterly incapable of logically deconstructing the arguments I've put forth is telling; you have completely failed to address the real substantive questions of concern here.

  • Why are you for policies which sacrifice consumer surplus and economic growth in order to benefit a small group of workers?
  • Why do you so clearly favor corporate producers over American consumers?
  • Why do you favor policies which hurt all American consumers?
  • Why do you favor policies which cause economic stagnation?
  • Do you even know what such stagnation entails?
  • How do you propose to stop outsourcing?
  • How are you going to deal with the dramatic increases in prices that would result from outsourcing?
  • How are you going to ensure that American's don't buy goods created by competitors elsewhere?
  • What are you going to do to ensure that companies don't simply move abroad once protectionist policies on them?
  • What about all the people who will lose jobs as a result of foreign investors leaving the US as a result of protectionism (Toyota, Samsung, Sony, Honda, etc. all employ thousands upon thousands of workers!)?
  • What about the jobs that will be lost in the service sector, particularly in retail, as a result of increasing prices?
  • What about the fact that much of the continued success of the US economy more generally is predicated on foreign trade?
  • What are the implications of protectionism for our fiscal and monetary policy?
  • How will protectionist policies impact the stock markets?
  • What are the implications from massive protectionist policies for the global economy more generally?
  • How will these policies affect capital flows?
  • What are the implications for foreign investment in our economy?
  • What are the implications for investment practices of US companies in foreign economies?
  • How are we going to deal with WTO sanctions resulting from your policy proposals?
  • How will we deal with the fact that these policies will cut off access to the very foreign markets that we must have access to in order to sell the goods produced by the very industries you want to protect!?

Can you even begin to answer even a few of these critical questions that have to be addressed by policymakers?
No, because there aren't good answers to them since the policies implied by your arguments would be catastrophic for the US economy. You make bare assertions about issues you know almost nothing about; you haven't thought through these questions, in fact I highly doubt you've even thought enough to actually ask the questions in the first place. Yet, somehow you think you've got the answers!


Of course, I could be wrong, you may just be an economic messiah who, despite having little to no formal education in economics, somehow understands how the global economy functions far better than the entirety of those working within the academic discipline of economics over the past 50 years. I'm sure you understand economics much better than the literally thousands of economists who have spent their lives engaged in academic research, teaching and debate.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 12-26-2009, 04:51 PM
 
Location: Lafayette, IN
838 posts, read 870,457 times
Reputation: 391
Quote:
Originally Posted by HappyTexan View Post
We are spending plenty of money. Take a look at NCLB though for reasons why we lag. NCLB has turned education into "lower the standards so that no child is left behind".
NCLB is a disaster, we need to fundamentally alter our approach to education. We do spend quite a bit on education, but the way we spend this money is inefficient and highly unequal. Quite frankly, we need to fully federalize education spending and ensure that all schools are funded equally, according to the number of students they have. Repeal NCLB, extend the school year, strengthen requirements, and so on and so forth.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 12-26-2009, 04:56 PM
 
Location: Great State of Texas
86,093 posts, read 72,575,594 times
Reputation: 27566
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ever Adrift View Post
NCLB is a disaster, we need to fundamentally alter our approach to education. We do spend quite a bit on education, but the way we spend this money is inefficient and highly unequal. Quite frankly, we need to fully federalize education spending and ensure that all schools are funded equally, according to the number of students they have. Repeal NCLB, extend the school year, strengthen requirements, and so on and so forth.
Yes, NCLB is the worst program to enter the school system.
I say just define the standards and let the states do their own thing.
Education was much better years ago before the Fed government got involved. Their Federal money for passing grades just shot the whole system apart. Teach to the test and lower the standards so that all kids pass in order to get the $$$$. Kids are graduating HS and can barely read yet they have that diploma. Our future generations will have little to no skills if education continues down this path.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 12-26-2009, 05:04 PM
 
4,510 posts, read 4,117,849 times
Reputation: 1501
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ever Adrift View Post
No, you're just uneducated when it comes to the academic discipline of economics and haven't a clue what you're talking about. The economic theories I've (very, very briefly) discussed explain how economies function both at the micro- and macro- level in great detail, they are excellent at predicting economic outcomes and are supported by countless quantitative and qualitative studies. The arguments underpinning these studies and theoretical understandings are straight-forward and largely demonstrable, the logic is incredibly sound. It is these very theoretical understandings which have helped governments, including the Chinese government, implement policies that have increased their economic growth. These aren't some set of principles made up by some kid; they are sets of interdependent principles that have been developed over several decades by thousands of economists engaged in academic research who have tested hypotheses using a variety of methodological approaches.

The very fact that you seem utterly incapable of logically deconstructing the arguments I've put forth is telling; you have completely failed to address the real substantive questions of concern here.

  • Why are you for policies which sacrifice consumer surplus and economic growth in order to benefit a small group of workers?
  • Why do you so clearly favor corporate producers over American consumers?
  • Why do you favor policies which hurt all American consumers?
  • Why do you favor policies which cause economic stagnation?
  • Do you even know what such stagnation entails?
  • How do you propose to stop outsourcing?
  • How are you going to deal with the dramatic increases in prices that would result from outsourcing?
  • How are you going to ensure that American's don't buy goods created by competitors elsewhere?
  • What are you going to do to ensure that companies don't simply move abroad once protectionist policies on them?
  • What about all the people who will lose jobs as a result of foreign investors leaving the US as a result of protectionism (Toyota, Samsung, Sony, Honda, etc. all employ thousands upon thousands of workers!)?
  • What about the jobs that will be lost in the service sector, particularly in retail, as a result of increasing prices?
  • What about the fact that much of the continued success of the US economy more generally is predicated on foreign trade?
  • What are the implications of protectionism for our fiscal and monetary policy?
  • How will protectionist policies impact the stock markets?
  • What are the implications from massive protectionist policies for the global economy more generally?
  • How will these policies affect capital flows?
  • What are the implications for foreign investment in our economy?
  • What are the implications for investment practices of US companies in foreign economies?
  • How are we going to deal with WTO sanctions resulting from your policy proposals?
  • How will we deal with the fact that these policies will cut off access to the very foreign markets that we must have access to in order to sell the goods produced by the very industries you want to protect!?
Can you even begin to answer even a few of these critical questions that have to be addressed by policymakers? No, because there aren't good answers to them since the policies implied by your arguments would be catastrophic for the US economy. You make bare assertions about issues you know almost nothing about; you haven't thought through these questions, in fact I highly doubt you've even thought enough to actually ask the questions in the first place. Yet, somehow you think you've got the answers!


Of course, I could be wrong, you may just be an economic messiah who, despite having little to no formal education in economics, somehow understands how the global economy functions far better than the entirety of those working within the academic discipline of economics over the past 50 years. I'm sure you understand economics much better than the literally thousands of economists who have spent their lives engaged in academic research, teaching and debate.
We can begin with removing the tax incentives given to coporations to outsource, but it's far too late. Capitalism is about making a product desirable - tied of course to price point and quality. Japan won the American automotive market first on the price point, and later on quality. They were forced by our government to bring jobs here in order to sell cars here. It was an instance of where the American worker wasn't hurt as much as of all the jobs went to Japan. Likewise, India and China also entered at the price point, encouraged and supported by American corporations seeking a quick jump to their bottom line, but now that we have transferred our knowledge to them, they will soon exceed us on the quality point. We have built out own mousetrap - and we are the mouse.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:

Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Politics and Other Controversies
Similar Threads
Follow City-Data.com founder on our Forum or

All times are GMT -6. The time now is 07:54 AM.

2005-2019, Advameg, Inc. · Please obey Forum Rules · Terms of Use and Privacy Policy · Bug Bounty

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35 - Top