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Old 01-01-2011, 11:32 PM
Location: Georgia, USA
23,274 posts, read 28,085,400 times
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Originally Posted by in_newengland View Post
I was cruelly treated for chicken pox with chicken soup.

And for mumps with Greek meat balls.

ergohead, I heart you! LOL

With measles I had to suffer though endless story books being read to me by my parents while I lay in bed resting. And my food came on a tray.

For some, these illnesses are nothing to joke about:

Subacute Sclerosing Panencephalitis Information Page: National Institute of Neurological Disorders and Stroke (NINDS) (http://www.ninds.nih.gov/disorders/subacute_panencephalitis/subacute_panencephalitis.htm - broken link)

Child Dies of Varicella Encephalitis

Old 01-01-2011, 11:33 PM
19,216 posts, read 12,949,610 times
Reputation: 2337
Autism could possibly be caused by a manganese deficiency caused by pre and post natal iron supplementation.
Old 01-02-2011, 12:50 AM
2,792 posts, read 3,646,420 times
Reputation: 1547
Originally Posted by ergohead View Post
Autism could possibly be caused by a manganese deficiency caused by pre and post natal iron supplementation.
Old 01-02-2011, 12:56 AM
9,065 posts, read 5,591,901 times
Reputation: 3824
Originally Posted by Eleanora1 View Post
Please detail which particular diseases are harmless to children and why.
I suggest you read this article entitled

Supporting Children's Health
- by Philip Incao, M.D.

Role of childhood illnesses in shaping the immune system - Dr Philip Incao | Public Health | Health of Children | www.karmayog.org

It goes into details about the immune system, and the actual benefits of the standard childhood diseases. I don't know where you've been educated, but this idea of lifelong immunity from wild infection is as old as time itself ... and shouldn't be such a secret to you.

Originally Posted by Eleanora1 View Post
Whooping cough has a one in 250 risk of death and a 1 in 100 risk of brain damage. The standard treatment for whooping cough in young babies is hospitalization. The same can easily be said for most vaccine preventable diseases. Hep B in young children easily leads to liver failure. Diphtheria and tentanus are essentially untreatable and have huge mortality rates.
Total, absolute, unequivocal rubbish. Just last summer, an outbreak of Pertussis occurred, and according to the reports in USA Today:
California whooping cough outbreak largest in decades - USATODAY.com

1500 confirmed cases ... and 700 more possible cases, and many more than that as most cases go undiagnosed or unreported ... of that group, 6 infants under the age of three months died, which makes up the risk group for mortality .... not 1 in 250.

Of course any deaths ... even 1 is too many, but the facts are, only infants are in serious risk from Pertussis ... which explains why the majority of cases go undiagnosed because they aren't reported, or even require emergency care ... so your 1 in 100 brain damage claim is grossly absurd, as is the 1 in 250 death rate. With the possible 2200 reported illnesses, that number is most assuredly exponentially higher ... by an incalculable number, since the estimates indicate that 90% of those that come in contact with the infected, also get infected .... lots of coughing spreads the disease to everyone around them. So 2200, x everyone they came in contact with, times everyone they cam in contact with, etc. ... that number could easily be several 10's of thousands, due to the lengthy duration of the Pertussis infection. For children older than 3 months, the disease is rarely a serious risk, and the 1-100 brain damage claim is beyond absurd.

Hepatitis B ... is the singularly best example of vac-insanity ... and anyone with an ounce of sense should question why a disease that is associated with sexual contact and intravenous drug users sharing needles is given to infants and children. This one is the prime example of the total irrationality within the pro-vaccine crowd ... and that's a tall statement since there are so many examples.

Diphtheria is untreatable? Do you just make this up as you go? Or are you getting educated by a crazy person? This very rare bacterial disease is treatable with the common antibiotics, penicillin and erythromycin, and preventable by proper hygiene and sanitation, (like most bacterial diseases) which is why it is common in the third world, and so rare in 1st world countries .... and no ... not because of vaccination .... sanitation.

Originally Posted by Eleanora1 View Post
There's nothing valuable in contracting diseases that maim, blind, deafen, paralyse and kill off brain cells.
Re-read the above posted article for your correction ... but I have no answers or response for melodrama and gross exaggeration.

Originally Posted by Eleanora1 View Post
To be anti-vaccine is indeed to be pro-disease. Do you really think nothing will happen if we stop vaccinating? History and even current events prove otherwise. As I pointed out hundreds of thousands of children were still dying of measles until more widespread access to the vaccine.
No doubt you see it that way ...yes .. you caught me ... I love diseases .. the nastier they are the better I like them. I so enjoyed my chickenpox, measles and mumps ... I'd do it all over again. Happy?

Now, to reality ... it's getting deeper and deeper as we go ... I should be wearing hip-highs. As you pointed out ... hundreds of thousands dying of measles? .... LOOK ... I'M getting sick of this ... Measles are a relatively mild disease, rarely caused any permanent damage, let alone death ... so hundreds of thousands of deaths? Where? Not here in this country. Fact is, the only threat of death from measles was the rare manifestation of encephalitis, due to very young victims that may have underdeveloped blood brain barriers ... and ... the real danger and worry of measles is in congenital measles affecting a pregnant mother's fetus, which is very serious. And like most all of the common childhood diseases, they posed little threat to children, whereas adults contracting them experience far more serious affects, which is why lifelong immunity from wild infection is far more desirable than vaccine induced protection that isn't lifelong, nor is any protection guaranteed at all.

Originally Posted by Eleanora1 View Post
Human beings were test subjects to the lack of vaccines for thousands of years. All we had to show for it were huge infant mortality rates and broken hearted parents.
Please ... spare me the tears of compassion ... you're obviously more attached to vaccines than you are the children and parents. Otherwise, you'd better educate yourself instead of the wild and absurd, provably false claims and exaggerations.

1790's ... that's when Jenner first injected cowpox pus in an 8 year old little boy ... and what a guy ...aye ... what a guy. His compassion overwhelms me! And between that time and the 1850's or so, the death rate in England for smallpox averaged about 2000 per year, prior to Jenner's vaccine. After the first round of Jenner's cowpox vaccine, that number climbed to 14,000 ... by the time they reached 90% vaccination rate ... that number went to 45,000. So, there's your vaccine that eradicated the scourge .... from 2000 - 45,000 .... 2,500% increase.

Again, it's not my intention to insult you ... you insult me and the efforts I'm expending here to educate others .... and of all people, you should be thanking me, rather than bending over backwards making one ridiculous claim after another.

Originally Posted by Eleanora1 View Post
You have shown nothing but poor sources with false claims that have been repeatedly debunked.
REALLY ... and what sources have you provided for your assertions? I haven't seen one used. And, I at least answer your points specifically and individually ... whereas it would be easy to sum up a proper response by saying not a word of your rebuttal was either accurate or even remotely close to the truth.

Originally Posted by Eleanora1 View Post
The brains of autistic children differ from that of normal children.
Really .... well other than the obvious neurological malfunctioning, how so? If you have the answer to the mystery of Autism, out with it already. Lots of people want to know ... including the CDC and FDA. Because none of them seem to have an answer. The ONLY thing they seem to know is that it can't be the vaccines. And they don't seem to be making any effort at all to find out. That should be your first clue.

Originally Posted by Eleanora1 View Post
People have made silly claims for thousands of years. Witness those who swore by homeopathy or phrenology or the efficacy of bleeding. Anecdotal evidence that meets the test of time is called a simple name: science.
Never, outside of religion, has there been more silly claims than that of alleged science .... from the flat earth theory to the Sun orbiting the Earth. And modern science regarding vaccine technology has it's roots in the mental manifestations of a poseur from the 1790's named Jenner, who purchased his medical degree for 15 Pounds Sterling from St Andrews College, without ever attending a single class, or taking a single exam. And his CURE based on a wives tale is PATENTLY IMPOSSIBLE to have ever worked.

You wouldn't understand why, so I won't bore you with the details.

Originally Posted by Eleanora1 View Post
You have yet to back up this claim with anything but poor sources and your own repeated assertions.

Children who react poorly to vaccines are hardly likely to react any better to the actual disease itself. Profits from vaccines are minimal at best. The real money is in curing toenail fungus and erectile dysfunction not in protecting a baby against measles or mumps.
Nonsense once again ... and it's so absurd, at this point, I hope for your sake it's purposeful.

First of all, big pharma's largess is the most profitable industry in the country by a factor of 5 ... and vaccines are one of the largest revenue items in their arsenal due to the shear volume .... worldwide distribution of one pandemic flu vaccine for which several countries attempt to vaccinate large segments of their population can net 20-50 Billion for that one vaccine in one year. Never mind the 20+ vaccines and the 40+ shots for children in several countries around the world ... and how bout that Gaurdasil vaccine ...$500 for 3 shots? I bet those rates are breaking them ... how low can they go!!!

Your insinuation that the Pharmaceutical Corporations are engaged in this vaccine business out of the kindness of their hearts, and for the sake of the public health .(for which they profit from being sick) is so lacking in fundamental common sense ... if this post had even an inkling of credibility in the eyes of the most generous .... it should lose it here.

Moreover, the "opinion" that children would hardly react better to a case of chickenpox, as opposed to being injected with a dozen disease agents, including heavy metals, formaldehyde, pig, monkey, chicken DNA fragments and retroviruses, mercury, and adjuvants to hyper-stimulate the immune response all at the same time ... and before their immune systems have had an opportunity to develop, lacks the wisdom to be having this conversation.
Old 01-02-2011, 01:07 AM
2,792 posts, read 3,646,420 times
Reputation: 1547
I am always fascinated by these autism/vaccine debates. Why? Because I have 2 close childhood frinds who each have a son w/ autism. I am 41 yrs old, and until this last decade, I NEVER remember autism, in ANYONE I knew, or really even in my town,in the schools,etc. And the claim that it's better diagnosed, or that it was formerly diagnosed as mental retardation, doesn't seem to fit,either. It IS on the rise,there's no denying it.

I am skeptical of both extremes of pro & anti vax people, I wonder if both have agendas. At this point, I think it is fair to say WE DON'T KNOW, & need more research. Obviously, if it were caused by vaccinations alone, MANY more people would have it. On the other hand, we can't simply ignore & dismiss the huge numbers of cases where people have taken their children for their shot, and then reported a huge change in the child afterwards. ALL of those people can't simply be over-reacting,lying,delusional,etc. It's just not possible.

There is just so much we don't know. Medical science has a long way to go,IMHO. In my own personal experiences, I have seen SO many mistakes made by doctors, mostly due to the arrogance many seem to have, w/ the attitude that the common citizen is clueless & ignorant. So many physicians seem to have the idea that they know all, and the lowly patient knows nothing about their own body or child. As a mother of four, I nearly lost three of my children at birth due to (all different) doctors' refusal to listen to me and my instincts & feelings. The medical world is NOT without fail, and IMO they over-prescribe drugs on a HUGE basis.
Old 01-02-2011, 01:24 AM
2,792 posts, read 3,646,420 times
Reputation: 1547
A bit OT, but has anyone received the calls from the University of Chicago doing the polls on vaccines for the CDC? I got sick of them calling me repeatedly, so I answered some of their questions. I hung up when they kept insisting I give them the name of the doctors/hospitals/clinics where my child had received their vaccinations. Just seemed too odd, along w/ the way the pollster read the spiel about the flu shot,Guardisil,etc, & admonishing me for not giving it to my child....just strange. Seemed really invasive to me. I I didn't mind the poll, per se, but found it odd when she said she needed the name of the doctors & etc. in order to verify if my child had gotten their shots. I told her she was crazy if she thought I was going to tell some random stranger on the phone the name of my child's doctor!

National Immunization Survey Respondents

Oh, & about a week later, they sent me $5 cash in the mail, w/ a note saying I would get $10 more if I complete the poll & give the names of the doctors/hospitals. Seemed really bizarre, to me.
Old 01-02-2011, 01:29 AM
Location: THE USA
3,254 posts, read 5,394,792 times
Reputation: 1984
Why are we bothering to try to convince stubborn people that vaccines are good for them? The world may be better off without those who believe that they are safer catching deadly diseases, and their children who will die would most likely grow up to breed more stubborn, ignorant people. It may sound callous, but the world was a callous place prior to vaccines. Herd immunity may save some Of them, but it won't protect them all. The world will take care of them.
Old 01-02-2011, 01:48 AM
9,065 posts, read 5,591,901 times
Reputation: 3824
Originally Posted by suzy_q2010 View Post

Please show me one immunology text that supports your contention that getting sick "develops" the immune system.

It's in every medical text known to medical science ...there is no artificial immunity through a vaccine that can offer guaranteed, lifelong protection ... not one.

Furthermore, the two subsets of the immune system for which science today doesn't thoroughly understand (as evidenced by the fact that immunology cannot reproduce natural wild infection immunity through vaccines) work in unison, with complementary and synergistic action. Vaccine induced overload of the immune T-cell response leaves the system imbalanced.

This, as many hypothesize may be the answer, or part of the answer to why childhood diseases are being prevented, though an explosion of epidemic proportions is occurring in childhood chronic diseases that were virtually unheard of 40 years ago ... diabetes ... arthritis .... severe food allergies ... leukemia/cancers ... asthma ... autoimmune diseases ... etc. And they most certainly are skyrocketing, so don't you dare deny it.

The fact is ... contrary to the claims ... kids are sicker today than EVER BEFORE .... suffering what used to be diseases isolated to adults and often the elderly. The answer to this is pretty clear, form a logical standpoint. All disease is a failure of the human immune system ... which is designed to fight off disease and keep us healthy. As we age, and toxin loads accumulate, that system can get overloaded and a reduction in efficiency and effectiveness can and does occur. The older you get, the less the system can defend. That's why arthritis is generally an old age disease .. and diabetes used to be ... and cancer, the same thing.

Children's immune systems are being damaged by vaccines with heavy toxin loads ... the prevented childhood diseases that helped build a strong immune system is subverted ... and the results are sicker generations, decade to decade.

Of course you think that eliminating measles for a good case of cancer is a fair trade. I disagree.

Originally Posted by suzy_q2010 View Post
We all want animals used in research to be treated ethically. The humans in vaccine development research are volunteers. There are requirements in place for their protection, including informed consent.

Not worthy of response ... but ... how do you ethically strap monkeys down, and implant disease in their bodies, and allow it to progress ... treat their injuries with experimentals "ethically"? Or, in many other cases, literally inject them with every poison available ... and watch them die? Then dissect them and use their brains to culture more poison to inject in infant humans? Just curious.

Originally Posted by suzy_q2010 View Post
So you are uniquely qualified to tell who is "retarded" by looking at them?

I hate to break it to you, but there are a lot of conditions that are associated with mental retardation that have physical effects so subtle that I doubt you would be able to pick them out in a crowd, including Fragile X syndrome and fetal alcohol syndrome.

How about these cute kids. Do they ride the "short bus"?

http://www.cafamily.org.uk/pics/f33i1.jpg (broken link)

Pictures Of Fetal Alcohol Syndrome

No, just because event A precedes event X does not mean A caused X. The fact is that the signs and symptoms of autism are commonly noticed at the same ages that vaccines are given. This means that the diagnosis and the vaccines will often coincide. It does not mean that the vaccine caused the autism, and the medical studies have overwhelmingly ruled out vaccines as a cause of autism.

Medical studies performed by whom? The manufacturers of the vaccines? You're also fraudulently ignoring the earlier post that you tried to claim disputed my point, when the study showed that Monkeys developed neurological disorders and their brains were toxically loaded with ethylmercury, at doses similar to human vaccine recipients. Deny all you want ... the blatant fraud engaged here is obvious.

Now ... I'm not goin to bother responding to the rest, since you see no point in even looking at the evidence I present ....

I'll finish with this note:

IF as you say .. there is no epidemic of Autism ... and these 1 in 100 is normal and has always been that way, but never noticed by parents, and never diagnosed .... where are they now? The last several generations? 30, 40, 50, 60 year olds ....surely that would account for a couple of Million Zombies meandering the streets unable to care for themselves, or even communicate with the world around them. Seems to me, somebody would have noticed them by now, and surely, in your life's travels, and the thousands of people you interact with over the past 30 plus years ... you'd have dozens of examples of adult autistic folks.

You don't ... I don't ... and neither does anyone else .... because they don't exist.

Old 01-02-2011, 01:56 AM
9,065 posts, read 5,591,901 times
Reputation: 3824
Originally Posted by Eleanora1 View Post
Please tell me you're NOT comparing children with mental retardation or learning disabilities to monkeys.
With such a lack of grasp of the obvious, I should expect you to get the finer points, so let me explain.

The claim is that these autistic children aren't being damaged by the vaccines. My response to that was that the results of the thimerosal testing on monkeys showed neurological malfunctions similar in nature to that of the autistic children. So did the moneys just start out retarded and no one noticed? That was the point.

My non-crazy source for such assertions:

Vaccines: Vac-Gen/What Would Happen If We Stopped Vaccinations[/quote]

Ah yes indeed. And if you wanna know what would happen if we stopped buying cars ... you can go to Ford dot com !!!

You can't be real.
Old 01-02-2011, 02:10 AM
Location: California
30,513 posts, read 33,335,622 times
Reputation: 25987
Just looking casually for what is "linked to autism" revealed the following:

IVF treatments
Maternal age
Living near a highway
Genetic mutations
Stress during pregnancy
PVC vinyl flooring
Breech births
Being first born
Environmental causes
Vitamin D deficiencies

And that was just the first couple of pages. In between were links touting that vaccines were NOT linked to autism and is the one thing that has been investigated on a large scale. I just thought that was interesting.
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