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The Shaker Heights story IS old but the decision to eliminate the science labs and the science teachers is recent and the article was dated December 23, 2009. Science is being eliminated because blacks in this school are lagging well behind the state average and it was determined that science is not helping the blacks. In the very same school with the very same teachers, whites are doing much better than the state average.
Out of 12 posts so far we have about 10 excuses:
#2 All kids, black and white, are flunking because they party. No, the whites in this school are doing better than the state average. It's the blacks in this school who are lagging behind.
#3 an attempt to dismiss the thread because it's old news. As stated above, the Shaker story is old but the science labs story is just this past week.
#6 blacks are failing because they dumb down their oral and written communication in social situations. This is not relevant as we are talking about academic achievement in school.
#8 All folks, black and white, who are not rich are being targeted by some mysterious elements for relegation to a massive underclass. Except the whites are doing better.
#10 Black parenting. Blacks don't supervise their children. The environment in this school is equal. All students are middle class and they all attend the same school with the same teachers. What is it about having black skin that makes parents think that education is not important and that it's not necessary to supervise their children?
Blacks think education is 'acting white'. So going on to college and then getting a good job that pays well is also a white thing? Education is education and knowledge is knowledge. Blacks think acquiring knowledge is a white thing? Is this an indication of intelligent thinking?
Racism. Ah, the old standby. This school district is eliminating science labs and the teachers who teach there because not enough blacks are able to take advantage of them. Yet, for some reason, this poster thinks that maybe these folks are racist?
#11 It is not just black kids who act dumb in social situations. Again, we're not talking about social situations. We're talking about academic achievement in school. If these kids are dumbing down their communication skills in social situations the theory would be that they really are not dumb. Then why the academic achievement gap?
#12 It's not just a black problem. It's a problem for all races . . .oh, except for asians. No, again, the whites are performing better than the state average in this school so it is not all races. It's just blacks and hispanics.
In black and white families there is 'no discipline and less guidance from the family'. Again, what is it about being black that makes these folks think the their children need no discipline and less guidance?
The purpose of this post is not to denegrate these excuses even though these excuses are easily refuted. What I want to do with this thread is see how many excuses we can come up with.
Here we have a situation to study where everything is equal except for race. All these students are at least middle class and they all go to the same school and they all have the same teachers. So it's not poverty, bad neighborhoods, failing schools, poor nutrition, etc., etc., etc.
So have at it. Let's see how many excuses we can come up with.
I spent 27 years in a large, urban high school in S. Florida before retiring in 2003. My students were white/black/Hispanic and of all ability levels, including AP. Towards the end of my career, almost all students were either black or Hispanic --- very little white, non-Hispanic presence in S. FL these days (less than 10%).
Quote:
...continued societal deference to the victims of racial discrimination has permitted blacks "the license not to meet the same standards that others must meet," which has been detrimental to every aspect of African-American life.
At the time of Ogbu's study (late 90s) the above quote, IMO, sums up the reasons for black students' under achievement. In my school district, schools had only recently been integrated (1970). By the late 90s we were seeing the very first students who had spent their entire lives in an integrated system; their parents, for the most part, were the products of lifelong segregation. The "victim mentality" of most of my black students was reinforced in their homes and in their churches on a regular basis. That mentality was a huge obstacle that had to be overcome by all teachers (white and black) BEFORE any learning could take place.
I have family and friends who are still in the classroom and they report that this "victim mentality" is not nearly as prevalent today as it was at the time the article's study was conducted. Hopefully, with the obvious achievements of blacks in every field of endeavor, parents and churches will spend more time looking to the future, and much less emphasizing the past, which will result in future studies revealing a lessening achievement gap for black students.
I spent 27 years in a large, urban high school in S. Florida before retiring in 2003. My students were white/black/Hispanic and of all ability levels, including AP. Towards the end of my career, almost all students were either black or Hispanic --- very little white, non-Hispanic presence in S. FL these days (less than 10%).
At the time of Ogbu's study (late 90s) the above quote, IMO, sums up the reasons for black students' under achievement. In my school district, schools had only recently been integrated (1970). By the late 90s we were seeing the very first students who had spent their entire lives in an integrated system; their parents, for the most part, were the products of lifelong segregation. The "victim mentality" of most of my black students was reinforced in their homes and in their churches on a regular basis. That mentality was a huge obstacle that had to be overcome by all teachers (white and black) BEFORE any learning could take place.
I have family and friends who are still in the classroom and they report that this "victim mentality" is not nearly as prevalent today as it was at the time the article's study was conducted. Hopefully, with the obvious achievements of blacks in every field of endeavor, parents and churches will spend more time looking to the future, and much less emphasizing the past, which will result in future studies revealing a lessening achievement gap for black students.
Ok, here's excuse #13 and it's a good one. I don't discount anything that you say and I agree that the 'victim' mentality is harming blacks. Another way of saying that is that they are constantly told that racism is the reason for their failure. I'm sure this is a contributing factor to blacks lack of effort in many cases. I'm also sure that this is what causes the resentment, bitterness and anger that exists for many of these folks.
However, there is a big fly in your ointment. You have completely ignored the other article referenced by the OP:
"The proposal to put the science-lab cuts on the table was approved recently by Berkeley High's School Governance Council, a body of teachers, parents, and students who oversee a plan to change the structure of the high school to address Berkeley's dismal racial achievement gap, where white students are doing far better than the state average while black and Latino students are doing worse."
This is almost 2010 and I don't believe this is a poor, poverty stricken, malnurished neighborhood. Whites and blacks are two thirds of the student body and evenly split. Obviously there is something else going on here.
Why does this achievement gap persist? This achievement gap is stubborn and persistent. It has always existed and it still does. All efforts to reduce this gap have failed. This gap persists when all else is equal. These kids are all from the same neighborhoods and they are from the same socio-economic class and they are not living in poverty.
As an African-American, I will probably get flack from my peers, but I agree with Prof. Ogbu. My own nephew is the son of a high ranking court officer but when he posts on Facebook he and his friends dumb down their writing/speech into a ghetto text-speak. there doesn't seem to be any valure for learning or knowledge beyond the latest electronic technology and the most played hip-hop video. And you would think the speed of digital media's evolution would prompt more curiosity about "how it works" and inspire an interest in science. I don't see it.
All you'll get from me is total respect for having the integrity to speak honestly about your opinions on this.
I do see this phenomenon in white kids as well, especially in those who want to imitate ghetto culture, but there are "other kinds of dumb" and I see that too (Valley Girl stuff, for example, or trolling the malls for boys instead of studying chemistry).
The problem is that whatever issue negatively affects white children affects black children all that much more. That's why it's never enough to say "oh, white kids are doing that too," because while many ARE, they will likely have other resources down the line to help them overcome their bad decisions or youthful indiscretions. Black kids, for the most part, do not have that safety net. They really need to be able to rely upon themselves and their education and life skills more than the average bear.
Children are NOT doing better now than ever before (but that's okay, CAVA, just keep your head in the sand while the rest of us do the heavy lifting to solve the problem). SO much more was expected of us academically than is being expected of kids today. I also know some teachers who are just idiots, having swallowed the whole "new educational theory" that came into vogue about 15 years ago. I suspect most good teachers really struggle in the system and others have just left it altogether. But teachers are not the whole story: education begins at home. No educational system can overcome the handicap of having parents who don't value education.
The purpose of this post is not to denegrate these excuses even though these excuses are easily refuted.
there are a lot of excuses in a controversy such as this one. but i am having a hard time following your logic when you label any and all explanations of the phenomenon as an excuse.
since none of them have been acceptable by your standards, why do you think it is that minorities are doing poor in school compared to the white students in the same situations?
All you'll get from me is total respect for having the integrity to speak honestly about your opinions on this.
I do see this phenomenon in white kids as well, especially in those who want to imitate ghetto culture, but there are "other kinds of dumb" and I see that too (Valley Girl stuff, for example, or trolling the malls for boys instead of studying chemistry).
The problem is that whatever issue negatively affects white children affects black children all that much more. That's why it's never enough to say "oh, white kids are doing that too," because while many ARE, they will likely have other resources down the line to help them overcome their bad decisions or youthful indiscretions. Black kids, for the most part, do not have that safety net. They really need to be able to rely upon themselves and their education and life skills more than the average bear.
Children are NOT doing better now than ever before (but that's okay, CAVA, just keep your head in the sand while the rest of us do the heavy lifting to solve the problem). SO much more was expected of us academically than is being expected of kids today. I also know some teachers who are just idiots, having swallowed the whole "new educational theory" that came into vogue about 15 years ago. I suspect most good teachers really struggle in the system and others have just left it altogether. But teachers are not the whole story: education begins at home. No educational system can overcome the handicap of having parents who don't value education.
The bolded is the very first thing that popped into my mind. Me and my boyfriend haven't even decided when or even if we're going to have children, but we have already discussed education regarding those pseudo children. We try to go to lectures (many college campuses offer free lectures, or speakers on the weekends), read books, study different subjects etc. not only for our own personal gain, but for our possible future children as well.
Parents need to buck up and start paying attention and not relying on the school system (and ESPECIALLY the childrens peers) to educate their kids. I learned so much from my parents, and neither one of them graduated college... hell, my dad barely graduated high school and ended up with his GED. They still managed to create and nurture a college graduate
What's interesting is that in the upper middle class of American society, there is a belief that going to a 4 year institution the only means. Thus, people who want to go to a community college or vocational training are stigmatized. This stigma leads to less opportunities in this group (kids of the upper middle and middle class going into vocational training).
Our mentality in this segment of the population is that if you don't have a bachelor's degree (at the VERY least) then you aren't something. This pressure isn't sustainable. We (as a nation) will continue to have relatively higher failure rates if we don't accommodate to those that don't want to go this track.
I'm not a teacher yet, but I do substitute right now. I've noticed a few things actually. I see a lack of respect for authority figures. I see this happen to teachers, and with a sub it's even worse. Kids will talk over you when you are trying to explain something to the rest of the class, which makes it nearly impossible for the kids who actually want to learn something. If you try and discipline them, they will either say "You can't do anything to me" or "noone can tell me what to do". They can be disruptive...don't stay in their seats, walk around the classroom talking to their friends. They will also use excuses like they forgot to bring certain needed books or handouts so they can't participate. They often use foul language in class, whether they are talking to you or another classmate. Another one of my favorites is when they totally ignore you and keep doing what they're doing or sit there and stare at you, continuing with the bad behavior (tapping on the desk with pencils, talking, etc...) and waiting to see just how far they can push you before you blow your top. Unfortunately for them, I have a huge amount of patience
This is certainly not exclusive of black students. White kids are just as bad., the hispanic kids too and this behavior seems to start around 3rd/4th grade. Younger kids can be that way too, but for them to test and be very "energetic" is normal and they are usually very eager to please and don't like to get into trouble. And in the classroom it's not even a big number of students who are disruptive...It's usually just one or two that can get the ball rolling. One of the worst group of kids I ever had the honor of subbing for was a high school class composed of primarily football players (white ones).
I think good teachers are important, and I've co-taught with some amazing people that I've learned a lot from. The best teachers I've noticed and who've had the calmest and most interested students were very patient and had a great sense of humor and one who I co-taught with before Christmas break; that on top of a great sense of humor, also seemed interested in and knew about their lives outside of school. One girl she bragged on for singing a solo at a Christmas show at a church and another one she told to be careful on a ski trip.
I think in addition to teachers like that, that there are also great parents. The kids who are disruptive and disrespectful are lacking something in their home life or have something going on at home that they bring to the classroom with them as far as behavior is concerned.
Last edited by love roses; 12-29-2009 at 12:52 PM..
All you'll get from me is total respect for having the integrity to speak honestly about your opinions on this.
I do see this phenomenon in white kids as well, especially in those who want to imitate ghetto culture, but there are "other kinds of dumb" and I see that too (Valley Girl stuff, for example, or trolling the malls for boys instead of studying chemistry).
The problem is that whatever issue negatively affects white children affects black children all that much more. That's why it's never enough to say "oh, white kids are doing that too," because while many ARE, they will likely have other resources down the line to help them overcome their bad decisions or youthful indiscretions. Black kids, for the most part, do not have that safety net. They really need to be able to rely upon themselves and their education and life skills more than the average bear.
Children are NOT doing better now than ever before (but that's okay, CAVA, just keep your head in the sand while the rest of us do the heavy lifting to solve the problem). SO much more was expected of us academically than is being expected of kids today. I also know some teachers who are just idiots, having swallowed the whole "new educational theory" that came into vogue about 15 years ago. I suspect most good teachers really struggle in the system and others have just left it altogether. But teachers are not the whole story: education begins at home. No educational system can overcome the handicap of having parents who don't value education.
This is exactly what I was trying to say, only much better worded
The bolded is the very first thing that popped into my mind. Me and my boyfriend haven't even decided when or even if we're going to have children, but we have already discussed education regarding those pseudo children. We try to go to lectures (many college campuses offer free lectures, or speakers on the weekends), read books, study different subjects etc. not only for our own personal gain, but for our possible future children as well.
Parents need to buck up and start paying attention and not relying on the school system (and ESPECIALLY the childrens peers) to educate their kids. I learned so much from my parents, and neither one of them graduated college... hell, my dad barely graduated high school and ended up with his GED. They still managed to create and nurture a college graduate
If you ever have kids, you'll be great parents.
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