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Old 01-02-2010, 06:42 PM
 
Location: here
24,839 posts, read 29,984,374 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by puglywump View Post
Why, oh why, do I attempt to reason with these people? I got into it today with one of them who is an otherwise decent human being. We are fine as long as I shut him down each time he wants to talk politics. Today I made the mistake of indulging him.

Long story short, I end up hating who he is when we "go there." He is one of these "well, GD it, I worked hard my whole life so why should I pay for anyone else's health insurance?" How I detest these types. What they don't acknowledge is that they have no issue with spending both their and MY money blowing up people to bits, but when it comes to advocating on behalf of LIFE, they are bereft of any soul. Things got so ridiculous he told me that until I took in a homeless person under my roof I was full of crap. Their train of thought boggles my mind and they cannot seem to understand civilized behavior.

Of course, he is one of these who says "Well, why don't you just move to X country if you don't like it here?" Of course, he also doesn't realize one doesn't just "move" to another country. It's not that easy. When I told him Germany would not be throwing their doors open to him with a gracious, "sure, why don't you come live in our country?" I think he was actually insulted. Countries DO have certain standards regarding who can emigrate. Oh, and I guess you can guess just which side of the aisle I am from.
I also had one of these exchanges with a couple people on facebook yesterday. I posted a quote re health care from my clueless congressman and a "friend" and my mother in law shot back about having to pay for other people's health care. It has been kind of a dark cloud over my whole day. I stopped short of calling them heartless, but I felt like it. FB is dangerous. My MIL and I know not to go there when we talk in person but FB opens all kinds of conversations that would never happen otherwise. If the other "friend" attacks my beliefs on my own wall again, I'm going to delete her. Sorry... anyway, I guess that's why I come here to have these discussions. It is "safe". I don't risk losing any real friends.
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Old 01-02-2010, 06:42 PM
 
303 posts, read 490,492 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Frankie117 View Post
Did the person you were arguing with come out and say they would rather pay for war in Iraq than healthcare? If not, you are only making baseless assumptions.
The debater said if he had to choose for healthcare for all (to include illegals) or for no one, he'd choose no one (minus himself, of course).

And yes, since he's convinced that "they" are all out to kill all of "us," it goes without saying he'd rather pay for war than healthcare.
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Old 01-02-2010, 06:45 PM
 
7,559 posts, read 9,408,352 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lifelongMOgal View Post
Do you understand that "death and destruction" is also a regrettable part of the defense of our country and that most soldiers would rather not have to take human life unless it is absolutely necessary? Do you think that they enjoy PTSD or the nightmares of looking into the face of someone who's guts are splattered all over, including their compatriots in the same vehicle?

I guess we could just not resist and let our enemy continue to attempt to blow us to bits. This was attempted as recently as Christmas Day over US soil. Is that preferable in your eyes?

Back to your "insurance" argument:

You do realize that people can purchase insurance privately without it being part of any benfit package offered by an employer in "private industry" don't you? That the "45 million uninsured" include illegal aliens and individuals who are capable of purchasing insurance but choose not to?? That Medicad and Medicare are the "stop gap" for those who truely cannot provide for their own healthcare?
I don't think you realize how expensive this "private insurance" is; years ago, I had to "purchase" private insurance" for a short time; the policy was almost $400/month, for a SINGLE person. Try to imagine the costs for such a person today, and then think of the problem of paying for a FAMILY policy. I haven't even mentioned pre-existing conditions yet, either.

Our nation can't endure the reality of having an est. 45 million Americans without any kind of health coverage. Our hospitals can't endure this, either. Thankfully, Obama is trying to get SOMETHING in place that will reduce this number, after many years of inactivition. No bill will be perfect, but at least he is trying to get something accomplished--much to the consternation of your friends in the GOP.
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Old 01-02-2010, 06:46 PM
 
Location: Land of debt and Corruption
7,526 posts, read 7,193,422 times
Reputation: 2845
Well, I applaud that you acknowledge that you shouldn't have political conversations with some people of the opposite ideology as yours, such as the case with your friend. Some people are incapable of acknowledging that. Maybe you could use it as a learning experience to understand why he feels the way he does.

I don't understand how you can begrudge your friend the benefits he received after serving your country dutifully. It's obvious you don't feel that he is deserving from what you've written. IMO, it doesn't matter if he served in combat or a desk job. Like it or not, the military serves a vital role in the protection of our country. Since you state he had a cushy desk job, do you feel he would be more deserving of his benefits if he served in a combat role? You have to understand that it is the politicians that decide to engage in combat missions, not the individual troops. If anything, perhaps you should direct your anger at the politicians and maybe begrudge them of their cushy pensions and lifetime healthcare deals. Whatever benefits our military men and women get are WELL deserved, regardless of what type of role they fulfilled. He earned his benefits by fulfilling a vital role. He worked for his benefits.

So if I am reading this correctly, and maybe I'm not, you don't feel your ex-military friend is deserving of the benefits he earned in return for his faithful service to our country but you do feel that the rest of america should receive those benefits, even if they haven't worked in any capacity to earn those benefits?
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Old 01-02-2010, 06:52 PM
 
7,559 posts, read 9,408,352 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by puglywump View Post
The debater in question is ex-military with MY tax dollars paying his pension and health care benefits for life! It's the whole "*********, I have mine - too bad if you don't" mentality.
Invariably,everyone runs into someone with the "I've got mine, forget about you" attitude. They ruin holiday dinners every year, and then they wonder why people try to ignore them afterwards.
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Old 01-02-2010, 06:52 PM
 
Location: Everywhere and Nowhere
14,131 posts, read 27,016,057 times
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Everyone's political views are shaped by their life experiences. Maybe he was beaten up by a liberal.
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Old 01-02-2010, 06:52 PM
 
303 posts, read 490,492 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by whatyousay View Post
So if I am reading this correctly, and maybe I'm not, you don't feel your ex-military friend is deserving of the benefits he earned in return for his faithful service to our country but you do feel that the rest of america should receive those benefits, even if they haven't worked in any capacity to earn those benefits?
Incorrect. I am happy to see him have both. I do begrudge his heartless attitude. I do believe all Americans have a basic right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. Without one's health, these things are hard to achieve.
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Old 01-02-2010, 06:54 PM
 
Location: Land of debt and Corruption
7,526 posts, read 7,193,422 times
Reputation: 2845
Quote:
Originally Posted by puglywump View Post
I don't begrudge him his pension and benefits. I DO begrudge his coldness of heart when it comes to his pocketbook and just who he "deems worthy" of what should be a basic right for every American - health care.
We must have been posting at the same time, sorry. So you accept that he earned his benefits fairly. So really, this whole argument has nothing to do with his military service then, or the benefits he received from it, and has everything to do with his stance against UHC?
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Old 01-02-2010, 07:01 PM
 
303 posts, read 490,492 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by whatyousay View Post
We must have been posting at the same time, sorry. So you accept that he earned his benefits fairly. So really, this whole argument has nothing to do with his military service then, or the benefits he received from it, and has everything to do with his stance against UHC?
Not quite. It has to do with my anti-war stance and my desire for UHC. I've had this issue with quite a few right wingers, my own mother included. She is a senior and I explain to her that she is on basically socialized medicine and that if she doesn't want to share, it should be taken from her as well. Of course, that never quite goes over very well. I just have a major issue with anyone who supports war and is against health care reform. And no one has enlightened me yet in this thread why it should not be this way.
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Old 01-02-2010, 07:05 PM
 
Location: Land of debt and Corruption
7,526 posts, read 7,193,422 times
Reputation: 2845
Well I think you are confusing people who support war and those who support defense. I don't know of many people that actually think of war as a good thing. IMO, it's always and should always be used as a last resort. I'm not quite sure what having a pro-military, pro-defense stance has to do with UHC though. And, I still think your anger is misplaced. It is the government and your politicians that get us into wars, the military just follows the orders.
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