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Old 04-30-2010, 10:47 PM
 
66,663 posts, read 30,428,331 times
Reputation: 8702

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More on Vattel's Law of Nation's influence on the Framers of the Constitution:

Quote:
Benjamin Franklin to Charles William Frederic Dumas
Philadelphia, 9 December, 1775
...I am much obliged by the kind present you have made us of your edition of Vattel. It came to us in good season, when the circumstances of a rising state make it necessary frequently to consult the law of nations. Accordingly that copy, which I kept, (after depositing one in our own public library here, and sending the other to the College of Massachusetts Bay, as you directed,) has been continually in the hands of the members of our Congress, now sitting, who are much pleased with your notes and preface, and have entertained a high and just esteem for their author.
Letters of delegates to Congress, 1774-1789, Volume 2, September 1775-December 1775

 
Old 04-30-2010, 11:14 PM
 
122 posts, read 93,254 times
Reputation: 19
Quote:
Originally Posted by DC at the Ridge View Post
No, Obama's father was a British citizen. But President Obama never "owed" allegiance to a foreign sovereignty. Whether a foreign sovereignty recognized him or not, because he was born in the United States, he never "owed" allegiance to any country but the United States.
US State Department Services Dual Nationality
"The concept of dual nationality means that a person is a citizen of two countries at the same time. Each country has its own citizenship laws based on its own policy.Persons may have dual nationality by automatic operation of different laws rather than by choice."

"However, dual nationals owe allegiance to both the United States and the foreign country. They are required to obey the laws of both countries. Either country has the right to enforce its laws, particularly if the person later travels there."
http://www.uscis.gov/files/nativedocuments/Citizenship_2004.pdf (broken link)
Page 66
"One problem associated with possessing the citizenship of two countries is that there may be situations in which the obligations of a dual citizen are in conflict. An example of this is conflicting military obligations making it difficult or impossible for a dual national to fulfill the obligations of both countries."
 
Old 04-30-2010, 11:53 PM
 
4 posts, read 3,193 times
Reputation: 15
Quote:
Originally Posted by deturmind View Post
Finally you post legitimate facts that can be verified. That was the landmark case that put teeth into the 14 amendment.

Well done! ... Not that my opion really matters .... or was it I don matter, I forget ...

Too bad it wont apply if he was born in Kenya like his grandma says ...
Instead of parroting Comrade Taitz, you need to listen to grandma's tape yourself. This is the full tape not the edited version produced by Berg, or Corsi, or Farah or whomever. In the full tape she identifies Hawaii as the birth place 3 times.
 
Old 04-30-2010, 11:53 PM
 
122 posts, read 93,254 times
Reputation: 19
Quote:
Originally Posted by deturmind View Post
Historiandude, nice write up! However, pay offs and coverups are the very thing that keeps the secret. It only takes a few well bribed officials to create the documents and everyone else would be none the wiser, even Dr. Fukino. If the evidence was that visible then of course the "birthers" would come out in herds.
No need for payoffs, coverups, or well bribed officials.

Use of this Hawaii statute would do the trick.

http://www.capitol.hawaii.gov/hrscur..._0338-0006.htm
§338-6 Local agent to prepare birth certificate. (a) If neither parent of the newborn child whose birth is unattended as provided in section 338-5 is able to prepare a birth certificate, the local agent of the department of health shall secure the necessary information from any person having knowledge of the birth and prepare and file the certificate.
(b) The department shall prescribe the time within which a supplementary report furnishing information omitted on the original certificate may be returned for the purpose of completing the certificate. Certificates of birth completed by a supplementary report shall not be considered as “delayed” or “altered.” [L 1949, c 327, §10; RL 1955, §57-9; am L Sp 1959 2d, c 1, §19; HRS §338-6]
If grandma wanted to make sure her grandson was a US citizen (which he wouldn't have been if he was born outside of the country) she could simply have gone to the local agent of the Dept. of Health and given them the necessary information (fudging on the place of birth a little, maybe) and have the birth certificate filed.

Then, hey presto, the Hawaii Dept of Vital Statistics would send the weekly batch of birth announcements to the newspapers, made from the list of birth certificates filed.

You say it didn't happen this way?

Maybe not.

The only way to know for sure is to see the...

(drumroll)

Long Form Birth Certificate !

If it has the Hospital's name and the Doctor's signature on it, we would know that he is a native born citizen per the fourteenth amendment, anyway.

I tend to think that knowing if the President was actually born a citizen at all is rather important.
 
Old 05-01-2010, 12:03 AM
 
Location: 3rd rock from the sun
3,858 posts, read 6,138,128 times
Reputation: 1809
Quote:
Originally Posted by red red rose View Post
No need for payoffs, coverups, or well bribed officials.

Use of this Hawaii statute would do the trick.

http://www.capitol.hawaii.gov/hrscur..._0338-0006.htm
§338-6 Local agent to prepare birth certificate. (a) If neither parent of the newborn child whose birth is unattended as provided in section 338-5 is able to prepare a birth certificate, the local agent of the department of health shall secure the necessary information from any person having knowledge of the birth and prepare and file the certificate.
(b) The department shall prescribe the time within which a supplementary report furnishing information omitted on the original certificate may be returned for the purpose of completing the certificate. Certificates of birth completed by a supplementary report shall not be considered as “delayed” or “altered.” [L 1949, c 327, §10; RL 1955, §57-9; am L Sp 1959 2d, c 1, §19; HRS §338-6]
If grandma wanted to make sure her grandson was a US citizen (which he wouldn't have been if he was born outside of the country) she could simply have gone to the local agent of the Dept. of Health and given them the necessary information (fudging on the place of birth a little, maybe) and have the birth certificate filed.

Then, hey presto, the Hawaii Dept of Vital Statistics would send the weekly batch of birth announcements to the newspapers, made from the list of birth certificates filed.
If it's that easy then perhaps a birther can prove it - by following the instructions above for a non-existent baby.
.
 
Old 05-01-2010, 12:41 AM
 
7,541 posts, read 5,358,668 times
Reputation: 1833
Quote:
Originally Posted by HistorianDude View Post
Close, but not quite.

Yes, they started digitizing the archives in 2001. But they also stopped filling out new long forms at the same time. All of the information that used to go on long forms is now transmitted electronically to the DoH instead and never exists as paper long forms at all. There are no long forms at all for births after 2001.
One thing to keep in mind, what birthers refer to as the "Long form" isn't the long form. The actual "full" Certificate of Live Birth contains more information, that is protected and private information under HIPAA as well as privacy laws. What those of us received as a copy had much of the form omitted (mostly the bottom half of the form). The rest saved to microfiche.

The "long form" is simply a form that was used back in the early days' of Hawaii medical vital statistics record keeping. Over the years, the information ASKED on that particular form became shorter and shorter, when in the 90's the "long form" got an overhaul and simply asked for pertinent information for statistical tracking as well as keeping it valid for use to establish citizenship.

Hawaii went completely to a short form in the 90's , but still typing it out and sending it to the Department of Health. It wasn't until 2000-2001 that hospitals and the DOH went to completely digital record keeping; forms were filled out on a computer and sent to the DOH electronically.

There are no paper forms filled out anymore. What you get in the hospital to take home is a novelty form that has no validity whatsoever (and that's even rare today). What is sent to the DOH via "internet" is the official information, and its from this information that one can request to obtain a Certification of Live Birth, the same that Obama has posted and Factcheck has confirmed.

I was born in Hawaii in the 70's. My Certificate of Live Birth looks absolutely unlike the Certificate of Live Birth that my Mother has (who was also born in Hawaii) and hers looks absolutely nothing like the Certificate of Live Birth of her father.

Forms change over time; as information is assessed many are no longer asked for if it serves no purpose whatsoever.

Hawaii hospitals rarely asked for a "foot print" to be made of a child. It provides absolutely no useful information for the DOH to file.

My Certificate of Live Birth, is actually no longer valid. Because Hawaii moved over to the Certification of Live Birth form, the certificate I have cannot be used to establish my citizenship; I ran into this problem when I applied for my first job in High School.

I had to go down to the Department of Health, and request a copy. And what did they give me? The same Certification of Live Birth that Obama has posted. This was in 1990.

With this form I:
1) Got a job, and filed taxes
2) Got my drivers license
3) got my passport for a trip to Japan in that same year.

Of all the offices I had to present the COLB to, the last would weigh the most on the validity of the form I presented. They never questioned it, saw that it contained the information required, and I got my Passport 3 weeks later.


I am new here, but was led here by a search on Google.
I was born and raised in Hawaii, but have moved to mainland. My aunt worked at Hawaii's Department of Health for 30 years before retiring, so I'm very familiar with the information they hold.

There is no magical "hidden" vault. It's simply a room with ceiling high cabinets that rotate. These are where the paper "form" records are stored. The Hawaii DMV has a similar system.

Most of the older records are actually on microfiche film, which helped save on space and protecting information (by not storing paper, in a VERY humid state; anyone who has lived in Hawaii can tell you about mold problems, termite problems, and cockroach problems; all of which would affect storage of paper documents).

Birther claims are as transparent as their motives. I do not see any clamor for John McCain (who was born in the Panama Canal Zone) or them demanding the birth records of Hillary Clinton, Joe Biden (hello? next in line to lead our country is the VP), John Edwards, Bill Richardson, Dennis Kucinich, Mike Gravel, Christopher Dodd, Tom Vilsack, and Evan Bayh
 
Old 05-01-2010, 12:53 AM
 
7,541 posts, read 5,358,668 times
Reputation: 1833
Quote:
Originally Posted by red red rose View Post
No need for payoffs, coverups, or well bribed officials.


If grandma wanted to make sure her grandson was a US citizen (which he wouldn't have been if he was born outside of the country) she could simply have gone to the local agent of the Dept. of Health and given them the necessary information (fudging on the place of birth a little, maybe) and have the birth certificate filed.

Then, hey presto, the Hawaii Dept of Vital Statistics would send the weekly batch of birth announcements to the newspapers, made from the list of birth certificates filed.
Sorry, but it wasn't that simple. Little Grandma Dunham wouldn't be able to do that at all. The person would have been required to have an attending physician to verify the birth and sign off on it (can be up to 1 year after birth). Without that doctor's signature, a Birth Certificate cannot be issued. The family would actually have to file a court case in order to get a Birth Certificate issued.



Quote:
You say it didn't happen this way?
It can't happen that way because there is safeguards against that kind of action upon by a parent. Otherwise, there would have been abuse of the process. Especially if parents would want to take advantage of any tax incentives or programs afforded to new mothers.

Do not make speculations based on your limited knowledge

Quote:
Maybe not.

The only way to know for sure is to see the...

(drumroll)

Long Form Birth Certificate !
There. Is. No. Long. Form. Birth. Certificate.

Hawaii has NEVER had a long form birth certificate.

They provide only two forms:
Certificate of Live Birth (which they stopped giving out in the early 90's)
Certification of Live Birth (which is given to EVERY single Hawaii Resident born in Hawaii since the 90's when one asks for a copy of their birth information).

the Certification of Live Birth derives its information from the Certificate of Live Birth.

Quote:
If it has the Hospital's name and the Doctor's signature on it, we would know that he is a native born citizen per the fourteenth amendment, anyway.
None of that is germane to validating a "birth certificate".

All that is important is Place of birth. For Obama its Honolulu, Hawaii

Last edited by Arus; 05-01-2010 at 01:05 AM..
 
Old 05-01-2010, 01:05 AM
 
7,541 posts, read 5,358,668 times
Reputation: 1833
Quote:
Originally Posted by InformedConsent View Post
Supreme Court decision:

United States v. Wong Kim Ark

The Supreme Court ruled Wong Kim Ark a citizen, not a natural born citizen.

You may want to read Wong Kim Ark AGain, as that is not what their ruling stated. It specifically states Natural Born Citizen.

Quote mine the entire decision in one paragraph? how low can birthers go?

Quote:
U.S. v. Wong Kim Ark,169 U.S. 649,654 (1898)
“It thus clearly appears that by the law of England for the last three centuries, beginning before the settlement of this country, and continuing to the present day, aliens, while residing in the dominions possessed by the crown of England, were within the allegiance, the obedience, the faith or loyalty, the protection, the power, and the jurisdiction of the English sovereign; and therefore every child born in England of alien parents was a natural-born subject, unless the child of an ambassador or other diplomatic agent of a foreign state, or of an alien enemy in hostile occupation of the place where the child was born. The same rule was in force in all the English colonies upon this continent down to the time of the Declaration of Independence, and in the United States afterwards, and continued to prevail under the constitution as originally established.
Quote:

U.S. v. Wong Kim Ark,169 U.S. 649, 666, 668, 673, 674 (1898).
“Every person born -within the United States, its territories or districts, whether the parents are citizens or aliens, is a natural born citizen, within the sense of the Constitution, and entitled to all the rights and privileges pertaining to that capacity. Town of New Hartford v. Town of Canaan, 5 Atl. SCO, 3(!4, 54 Conn. 39 (citing Rawle, Const. U. S. p. 86). See also. Lynch v. Clarke (N. Y.) 1 Sandf. Ch. 584, 2 Kent, Comni. (9th Ed.): McKay v. Campbell (U. S.) 16 Fed. Cas. 157; Field, Int Code, 132; Morse, Citizenship, 203).”

And from Ankeny vs Gov of Indiana
Quote:
Then, in U.S. v. Wong Kim Ark, 169 U.S. 649, 18 S. Ct. 456 (1898), the United States Supreme Court confronted the question of “whether a child born in the United States, of parents of Chinese descent, who at the time of his birth are subject to the emperor of China . . . becomes at the time of his birth a citizen of the United States, by virtue of the first clause of the fourteenth amendment . . . .” 169 U.S. at 653, 18 S. Ct. at 458. We find this case instructive. The Court in Wong Kim Ark reaffirmed Minor in that the meaning of the words “citizen of the United States” and “natural-born citizen of the United States” “must be interpreted in the light of the common law, the principles and history of which were familiarly known to the framers of the constitution.” Id. at 654, 18 S. Ct. at 459. They noted that “[t]he interpretation of the constitution of the United States


...




The Court in Wong Kim Ark also cited authority which notes that:
All persons born in the allegiance of the king are natural-born subjects, and all persons born in the allegiance of the United States are natural-born citizens. Birth and allegiance go together. Such is the rule of the common law, and it is the common law of this country, as well as of England. We find no warrant for the opinion that this great principle of the common law has ever been changed in the United States. It has always obtained here with the same vigor, and subject only to the same exceptions, since as before the Revolution.
Wong Kim Ark has been cited in over 1000 cases relating to Citizenship status and establishing that anyone born on US soil, is a natural born or native born citizen.
 
Old 05-01-2010, 02:23 AM
 
Location: Houston, TX
948 posts, read 779,219 times
Reputation: 195
In 2-3 years when the truth comes out that this clown was really just a stand in are you Kool-Aid drinkers gonna come and delete your posts lest you look like misbegotten fools?

Hell, in 2-3 years we'll be lucky if we even have internet much less be alive to enjoy it.
 
Old 05-01-2010, 02:26 AM
 
Location: Mississippi
3,049 posts, read 2,469,029 times
Reputation: 699
Quote:
Originally Posted by HistorianDude View Post
Actually... no.

The birth certificate is merely the first failed ploy to try and disqualify an elected President and reverse an historic election. The absurd (and palpably false) "two-citizen parent" theory is the fifth fall-back attempt... call it "Plan E."

Plan A of course was that Obama was born in Kenya (or Canada).

Plan B was that he lost his citizenship via a foreign adoption.

Plan C was that he was a dual citizen and dual citizens could not be NBCs.

Plan D was that he surrendered his citizenship to travel to Pakistan on an Indonesian passport.

plan E was that to be NBC you needed two citizen parents.

Of these five positions (the original and four fall backs) only the first ever had the advantage of being possible under the law. After all, if he actually was born in Kenya to a woman of Stanley Anne's age in 1961, he actually would not have been a citizen under the law.

Plans B,C, D and E (primarily because they represent increasing levels of Birther desperation) run increasingly afoul of the simple fact that none of them are or ever have been supported by American law. None of those circumstances matter one whit regarding anybody's status as an NBC.

The birth certificate issue persists because it is the only issue that could possible matter. Too bad he has released his birth certificate and that issue is long settled.

there is a monster thread.at free republic..Obama Sr. had an affair with Toots..stanley ann's mom..out popped Obama jr....the daughter married Sr. to cover it up..
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