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Old 01-16-2010, 04:54 PM
 
Location: Idaho Falls
5,027 posts, read 5,539,861 times
Reputation: 1479

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Keegan View Post
Fair enough. But I don't think you can really debate the existence of dieties. Either you believe they exist or you believe they don't. Neither side can prove the correctness of their position, so both are just matters of faith. Of course, both sides like to believe they are right, and will attempt to prove they are. And so, in the immortal words of Ray Davies and The Kinks, "Now we're back where we started, here we go round again."
Not true at all. It is not true that because atheists can't prove the nonexistence of god that it's just a matter of faith.

Go back to nvxplorer's question about unicorns. Is not believing in unicorns a matter of faith? Could a unicorn believer accuse you of being "dogmatic" because you insist that unicorns don't exist?

How about astrology? Can a tarot reader say that you are just relying on faith when you claim that cards can't fortell the future?

Atheism is not faith. It is the absense of faith. "If atheism is faith, then not collecting stamps is a hobby."
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Old 01-16-2010, 05:44 PM
 
Location: Portland, Oregon
7,090 posts, read 10,762,398 times
Reputation: 4109
Self delusion is stronger then facts or evidence, people will find a way to deny it.
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Old 01-16-2010, 06:23 PM
 
Location: Martinsville, NJ
6,162 posts, read 11,245,728 times
Reputation: 3958
Quote:
Originally Posted by idahogie View Post
Not true at all. It is not true that because atheists can't prove the nonexistence of god that it's just a matter of faith.

Go back to nvxplorer's question about unicorns. Is not believing in unicorns a matter of faith? Could a unicorn believer accuse you of being "dogmatic" because you insist that unicorns don't exist?

How about astrology? Can a tarot reader say that you are just relying on faith when you claim that cards can't fortell the future?

Atheism is not faith. It is the absense of faith. "If atheism is faith, then not collecting stamps is a hobby."
As I said....

Sing on Mr. Davies. I'll sit this one out.
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Old 01-17-2010, 12:28 AM
 
Location: Unperson Everyman Land
30,464 posts, read 20,108,960 times
Reputation: 8379
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dane_in_LA View Post
It's not as if atheists hold non-services in non-schurches where non-priests hold sermons on non-gospel before the singing of non-hymns (or should that be the non-singing of hymns?) - in other words, atheism lack every distinguishing feature of what we'd readily recognize as a religion.

Atheism is a position as regards faith in the existence of a deity. Some (but certainly not all) of those who have the opposite position have formed religions. On the other hand, some atheists are in fact religous - Buddhism is just fine with atheism.

Faith in a deity is quite separate from religion.

2 : a personal set or institutionalized system of religious attitudes, beliefs, and practices

4 : a cause, principle, or system of beliefs held to with ardor and faith

religion - Definition from the Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary


Since Atheism deals with the question of the existence or non-existence of a deity, I would definitely classify Atheism as a system of religious attitudes, beliefs and practices and therefore a religion. Since Evolution from the earliest and simplest biological organisms to the existing set of plants and animals is the only account of life's origin that doesn't require, and particularly excludes, a creator.
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Old 01-17-2010, 12:44 AM
 
Location: Unperson Everyman Land
30,464 posts, read 20,108,960 times
Reputation: 8379
Quote:
Originally Posted by idahogie View Post
Not true at all. It is not true that because atheists can't prove the nonexistence of god that it's just a matter of faith.

Go back to nvxplorer's question about unicorns. Is not believing in unicorns a matter of faith? Could a unicorn believer accuse you of being "dogmatic" because you insist that unicorns don't exist?

How about astrology? Can a tarot reader say that you are just relying on faith when you claim that cards can't fortell the future?

Atheism is not faith. It is the absence of faith. "If atheism is faith, then not collecting stamps is a hobby."

The question isn't whether or not Atheism requires faith. The question is whether or not it is a religion?
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Old 01-17-2010, 07:45 AM
 
Location: Idaho Falls
5,027 posts, read 5,539,861 times
Reputation: 1479
Quote:
Originally Posted by momonkey View Post
The question isn't whether or not Atheism requires faith. The question is whether or not it is a religion?
If it doesn't require faith, then it's not a religion.

You can base your argument on extending the most gereral dictionary definitions that you can find - but that's a pretty pathetic basis for argument.

The fact is that evolution is science. It has been tested for over 150 years and never failed. It is predictive and falsifiable. It is an amazing theory that is responsible for accumulating a vast body of knowledge about our world and how it works. It is a thing of beauty.

Religion is faith. It has never been tested successfully. But it has a group of followers who demand to be respected for no other reason than they demand it. It has never once been shown to have any basis in fact. It fails every test. It is basically useless - except for the people and institutions who live off the gullibility of believers.
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Old 01-17-2010, 10:07 AM
 
32,477 posts, read 16,633,525 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by momonkey View Post
Since Atheism deals with the question of the existence or non-existence of a deity, I would definitely classify Atheism as a system of religious attitudes, beliefs and practices and therefore a religion.
As somebody else said: Is not collecting stamps a hobby? Atheists share no system and certainly no practices. Only the absence of belief.

Merriam-Webster definition 4 is ridiculously broad. Sure, water down the term "religion" enough and every position can be declared religious.

Quote:
Since Evolution from the earliest and simplest biological organisms to the existing set of plants and animals is the only account of life's origin that doesn't require, and particularly excludes, a creator.
Evolution and atheism have nothing to do with each other - and all science excludes a supernatural creator.
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Old 01-17-2010, 10:27 AM
 
19,183 posts, read 28,382,298 times
Reputation: 4002
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Keegan View Post
As I said....Sing on Mr. Davies. I'll sit this one out.
Well, you sort of started it, Bill. First with the fallacy of equivocation, i.e., trying to take advanatge of the difference between two distinct definitions of a word, and then with the false equality of religion and non-religion. You want to put the religious at +1 on your scale and the non-religous at -1. That way you can proclaim their equivalence and note that neither can really prove their case. In actuality, the religious are at +1 alright, but everybody else is still at 0. They don't have a case to prove. Only you do...
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Old 01-17-2010, 10:38 AM
 
Location: Oklahoma City
759 posts, read 710,140 times
Reputation: 238
Default Madlyn Murray O'Hair

I think this subject is off topic but the American Atheists was founded in 1963 by Madalyn Murray O'Hair as the Society of Separationists. She is probably best know for challenging mandatory pray in public schools.
"An atheist loves himself and his fellow man instead of a god. An atheist thinks that heaven is something for which we should work for now — here on earth — for all men together to enjoy." Madalyn Murray O'Hair.

Last edited by okccowboy; 01-17-2010 at 11:05 AM..
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Old 01-17-2010, 10:46 AM
 
Location: San Josť, CA
3,265 posts, read 5,786,184 times
Reputation: 3201
Quote:
Originally Posted by kemcnyc View Post
Wow.... this thread really veered off course.

to respond to the OP:

When the 'Theory of Evolution' becomes the 'Fact of Evolution', you may claim that "Evolution is a Fact of Life".

It is a theory for a reason. THAT is Science.
Give me a call if you start growing a tail.
You don't know what the word Theory actually means in the science world, do you?

To be called a theory, you must first start with a hypothesis and it must then be tested, and tested relentlessly, in the case of evolution. Do you know what empirical evidence is?

Main Entry: the∑o∑ry
Pronunciation: \ˈthē-ə-rē, ˈthir-ē\
Function: noun
Inflected Form(s): plural the∑o∑ries
Etymology: Late Latin theoria, from Greek theōria, from theōrein
Date: 1592

1 : the analysis of a set of facts in their relation to one another
5 : a plausible or scientifically acceptable general principle or body of principles offered to explain phenomena <the wave theory of light>
6 c : a body of theorems presenting a concise systematic view of a subject <theory of equations> synonyms see hypothesis

Many outside of the scientific community do not understand that the term, as applies, does actually mean a fact, or a set of facts. It will never be called "The Fact of Evolution," however, which isn't a front on Evolution because I don't know of any scientific principles that are worded in that manner. Have you ever heard anyone say, "The Fact of Relativity."

If only our citizens had any real scientific knowledge or at least an interest. Auuugh.
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