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Old 01-12-2010, 10:35 AM
 
4,380 posts, read 2,934,652 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pollyrobin View Post
wow... just wow... Verbal abuse has nothing to do with insecurity? ....... what planet do you live on? wow..just wow
Let me guess........when you say "verbal abuse" you have only men in mind, right?
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Old 01-12-2010, 10:38 AM
 
Location: Oxford, England
13,036 posts, read 22,030,756 times
Reputation: 19909
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyber Queen View Post
France wants to intrude on every aspect of people's lives from how they raise their children to now how partners talk to each other. If that is not idiotic to you then I can not help you.
That wasn't the question. The question was what made France different from other countries in the idiocy stakes. Funny but I don't remember my Father being told how to raise me by the French government.

Granted French bureaucracy is pretty bad but on the other hand my Father raised me exactly how he wanted.

I am simply asking you to elaborate a little. As you believe the French government intrudes on every aspect of everyone else's life compared to other countries please do explain.

This latest proposal about not yelling at spouses is really ridiculous and utterly stupid. No argument there. But you seem to have far more against the French government than this ( as it does top the idiot list after all ).

I presume you have lived in France for a considerable period of time as well as other countries, European and non European to make this sort of judgement.
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Old 01-12-2010, 10:48 AM
 
Location: Over There
5,129 posts, read 4,781,761 times
Reputation: 1205
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mooseketeer View Post
That wasn't the question. The question was what made France different from other countries in relation to the idiocy stakes. Funny but I don't remember my Father being told how to raise me by the French government.
Hence the move towards idiocy.

Quote:
Granted French bureaucracy is pretty bad but on the other hand my Father raised me exactly how he wanted.

I am simply asking you to elaborate a little. As you believe the French government intrudes on every aspect of everyone else's life compared to other countries please do explain.

This latest proposal about not yelling at spouses is really ridiculous and utterly stupid. No argument there. But you seem to have far more against the French government than this ( as it does top the idiot list after all ).

I presume you have lived in France for a considerable period of time as well as other countries, European and non European to make this sort of judgement.
I AM French also I have never lived there but my mother has and my father was born and raised in Italy does that count as Europe? When a government moves in the direction that France is I see it as idiotic. AFTER this most recent law IMO it does move France to the top of the list.
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Old 01-12-2010, 11:13 AM
 
Location: Oxford, England
13,036 posts, read 22,030,756 times
Reputation: 19909
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyber Queen View Post
Hence the move towards idiocy.


I AM French also I have never lived there but my mother has and my father was born and raised in Italy does that count as Europe? When a government moves in the direction that France is I see it as idiotic. AFTER this most recent law IMO it does move France to the top of the list.
Still not much comparison from you regarding France and other countries ? I have lived in the UK for over 21 years, 3 years in the US before this and on every continent apart from Australia and Antarctica and I could come up with idiotic laws in every single country I know.

To single out France ( or any other country for that matter) is just plain silly. Unless you can back it up with facts of course. And that would have to be a lot of facts. Each country has ridiculous laws , rules and legislations. Each government attempts to pass ridiculous policies at some point. And trust me I loathe Sarkozy with a passion so my sympathy are certainly with you on the current government.

And please don't think I am being overly protective of my Nation of Birth, I have never really been patriotic in the slightest. I find countless things irritating and stupid about France too. I just don't think it very balanced to somehow make facile statements about an entire Nation based on obviously very little.

Italy , another place I have lived and where your father grew up is to start a country with its own little idiosyncrasies . As is Germany, Spain , the US, Austria etc...

I just expected a more detailed response from you as you seem to know so much about many different European countries and their varying degree of idiocy in Governmental policies. I suggest you look into the UK, some of their laws and public policies are completely barmy.

I gather that if you are French you do not consider yourself to be so if "proud of my colours" is anything to go by ? Sounds very American to me. I can't imagine a French person ever doing that. Maybe at a Football game. Flags tend to make Europeans in general rather nervous.

I consider myself Breton first, European second and French third. Being born in France to French parents is simply an accident of birth so I don't like to label myself too much in terms of Nationality. I have a French passport and miss some aspects of French life. Then again if I moved from the UK I would feel likewise about the UK. I lived in the US and also miss aspects of it. I love the US and Americans, but then again I also loved many other places I lived. I love France but am certainly not blind to all its faults. And there are many.

I am simply not sure France is worse than anywhere else however.

Not one country has the monopoly on stupidity. Invading a sovereign nation under the guise of a so called "war" on terrorism , not signing the Kyoto treaty, not having Universal healthcare, no paid holidays... all pretty stupid to me too.
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Old 01-12-2010, 12:16 PM
 
Location: Over There
5,129 posts, read 4,781,761 times
Reputation: 1205
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mooseketeer View Post
Still not much comparison from you regarding France and other countries ? I have lived in the UK for over 21 years, 3 years in the US before this and on every continent apart from Australia and Antarctica and I could come up with idiotic laws in every single country I know.

To single out France ( or any other country for that matter) is just plain silly. Unless you can back it up with facts of course. And that would have to be a lot of facts. Each country has ridiculous laws , rules and legislations. Each government attempts to pass ridiculous policies at some point. And trust me I loathe Sarkozy with a passion so my sympathy are certainly with you on the current government.

And please don't think I am being overly protective of my Nation of Birth, I have never really been patriotic in the slightest. I find countless things irritating and stupid about France too. I just don't think it very balanced to somehow make facile statements about an entire Nation based on obviously very little.

Italy , another place I have lived and where your father grew up is to start a country with its own little idiosyncrasies . As is Germany, Spain , the US, Austria etc...

I just expected a more detailed response from you as you seem to know so much about many different European countries and their varying degree of idiocy in Governmental policies. I suggest you look into the UK, some of their laws and public policies are completely barmy.

I gather that if you are French you do not consider yourself to be so if "proud of my colours" is anything to go by ? Sounds very American to me. I can't imagine a French person ever doing that. Maybe at a Football game. Flags tend to make Europeans in general rather nervous.

I consider myself Breton first, European second and French third. Being born in France to French parents is simply an accident of birth so I don't like to label myself too much in terms of Nationality. I have a French passport and miss some aspects of French life. Then again if I moved from the UK I would feel likewise about the UK. I lived in the US and also miss aspects of it. I love the US and Americans, but then again I also loved many other places I lived. I love France but am certainly not blind to all its faults. And there are many.

I am simply not sure France is worse than anywhere else however.

Not one country has the monopoly on stupidity. Invading a sovereign nation under the guise of a so called "war" on terrorism , not signing the Kyoto treaty, not having Universal healthcare, no paid holidays... all pretty stupid to me too.

Again the implementation of this law is what IMO moves them to the top. I am very aware that other countries have idiotic laws but until I hear of another, this one takes the cake.

I am an American FIRST. So yes I am very "proud of my colors". Just because I have French blood in me does not mean I will not call what they do idiotic if I feel it is. I am not blindly French, Italian, etc. I have and will continue to call some of the things the US does idiotic but as of right now this law IMO tops the idiotic list.
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Old 01-12-2010, 12:49 PM
 
Location: PA
5,560 posts, read 4,979,570 times
Reputation: 1945
Quote:
Originally Posted by GregW View Post
Yelling at someone can be considered a threat or an assault. A man does not have a right to commit an assault. Assault is already a criminally illegal act. France is apparently pointing this out. Maybe their men will think before they start yelling at and beating their women.

I am positive GregW works for the every socialist network and socialist/communist group of thought police and trying to refining the concept of liberty.
People get into arguements and if a study was done women yell at men more about socks on the floor then men yelling at their wives about anything. I think this is about getting into the personal and social relationships of individuals which have nothing to DO with the government. The government is looking for ways to control people and the interaction of relationships for good or bad. If anything its the assault on peoples private lives and private relationships from the government. Yelling is something humans do for many reasons of which none are ASSULT. How and who would do this monitoring? The police?
How far would the government take this concept?
If you are unable to have a discussion, yell and even scream without the cameras and or other vise in your personal relationship you are a ROBOT. This is insane and only the big government, nanny state, control freaks think controling and redefining assult is somehow a good idea and now expanding it to yelling. These people need to be stopped, they want to create laws that control your social behavior and have nothing to do with HELPING ANYONE!!! They are a 24hr 365 day progandana machines and redefine words, phases and anything you think is normal, liberty, your own freedom, money, and or property. Your relationships and your life is and by all means the subject to government control. They vote in the people of their kind to run your lives, to control your government to control your income, your children and your mind.

This is not about socialism. facism or anything else its simply another form of control over your private life and no matter what flag, ism and or any other label someone can use to define it. The simple reaction from free thinking, free people should be the same. GET OUT OF MY LIFE!!!
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Old 01-12-2010, 01:00 PM
 
Location: Oxford, England
13,036 posts, read 22,030,756 times
Reputation: 19909
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyber Queen View Post
Again the implementation of this law is what IMO moves them to the top. I am very aware that other countries have idiotic laws but until I hear of another, this one takes the cake.

I am an American FIRST. So yes I am very "proud of my colors". Just because I have French blood in me does not mean I will not call what they do idiotic if I feel it is. I am not blindly French, Italian, etc. I have and will continue to call some of the things the US does idiotic but as of right now this law IMO tops the idiotic list.

I thought you said you were French ? You are either American or French. Unless you have dual Nationality of course. You stated French . My Grand-Father was American, my mother is now Canadian, My other Grand-Father was Italian, the rest is a mixture of Irish and Scottish but I am sadly still French. Breton first because it is my region, European in terms of general culture because at the end of the day we are not all that different and I hate nationalism but France is what my passport states and as such I am French. French father and Mother ( at the time) and born in France. I find this "I am Welsh, French, Irish etc... from Americans quite bizarre . I would never think of calling myself American, Scottish or Italian simply because I had some American, Scottish, Italian etc.. blood.


As for stupid Laws I don't many of them come more stupid than the Patriot Act or the various policies introduced by the Labour government in the UK to align themselves with the US.


You can now be arrested under counter-terrorism measures for just about everything , for terrible crimes such as reading the names of victims of war at a cenotaph ( happened a couple of years ago) and taking photographs of double decker buses can now count as terrorism risk and thus policemen can now confiscate your photos. If that's not stupid then I don't know what is. I would argue that comes pretty close to trying to legislate shouting at your spouse. In fact is even more stupid.

At least I can see a practical application for that stupid law ( ie the prevention of marial abuse though I don't believe it would ever work). How reading some names at a Cenotaph in any way endanger our society is beyond me.

Governments by their very definition do restrict people's freedom to a certain extent. Rules and Laws are there to stop certain activities. ALL governments do this and so many laws are ridiculous that it would take a year to list them all. France is no more , no less stupid in this regard.


I note you took the easy way by basically admitting that this current proposal for this ridiculous new law is the one which was brought to your attention, happened to be in France and as such makes France ( the French government) top the idiot list. Basically you didn't seem to know much about other countries and their stupid rules.

You have little upon which to base this assumption of the level of idiocy of one nation against another apart as you couldn't come up with facts apart from ONE law . And believe me I know, France has many stupid laws. As does everywhere else.

If you want to really worry about certain laws I would start about the really serious ones depriving us of our civil liberties in a big way , like the removal of "Habeas Corpus" in the UK in recent years.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk...ed-405951.html

20 Stupid Laws! - N-Europe Forums
stupid laws and regulations

Police delete London tourists' photos 'to prevent terrorism' | UK news | guardian.co.uk
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Old 01-12-2010, 01:22 PM
 
Location: Oxford, England
13,036 posts, read 22,030,756 times
Reputation: 19909
Quote:
Originally Posted by LibertyandJusticeforAll View Post
I am positive GregW works for the every socialist network and socialist/communist group of thought police and trying to refining the concept of liberty.
People get into arguements and if a study was done women yell at men more about socks on the floor then men yelling at their wives about anything. I think this is about getting into the personal and social relationships of individuals which have nothing to DO with the government. The government is looking for ways to control people and the interaction of relationships for good or bad. If anything its the assault on peoples private lives and private relationships from the government. Yelling is something humans do for many reasons of which none are ASSULT. How and who would do this monitoring? The police?
How far would the government take this concept?
If you are unable to have a discussion, yell and even scream without the cameras and or other vise in your personal relationship you are a ROBOT. This is insane and only the big government, nanny state, control freaks think controling and redefining assult is somehow a good idea and now expanding it to yelling. These people need to be stopped, they want to create laws that control your social behavior and have nothing to do with HELPING ANYONE!!! They are a 24hr 365 day progandana machines and redefine words, phases and anything you think is normal, liberty, your own freedom, money, and or property. Your relationships and your life is and by all means the subject to government control. They vote in the people of their kind to run your lives, to control your government to control your income, your children and your mind.

This is not about socialism. facism or anything else its simply another form of control over your private life and no matter what flag, ism and or any other label someone can use to define it. The simple reaction from free thinking, free people should be the same. GET OUT OF MY LIFE!!!

I completely agree with you ( apart from the odd contradiction in terms of first calling Gregw a socialist then saying it's not about socialism !). Brandying the word socialism is not particularly helpful when discussing those topics . Especially as Socialism seems a concept grossly misunderstood by so many people. France is not socialist. Even when it had a so called "socialist" government ( over 15 years ago) it was still a free market capitalist Nation just as the rest of Western Europe. Maybe not as strong a brand of pure capitalism as the US but very much capitalist nonetheless....

I am a flaming leftie and this law is absurd, ridiculous and utterly stupid. I can't even believe it will happen as it is basically un-enforcable anyway and will simply drive spousal abuse further underground so to speak.

As humans we all have arguments, we all shout and say things we regret later. It is simply a human way to behave and to try and control human emotions in that legalistic way is simply idiotic. And will not work.

Also as anyone who has been to a Latin country will know Southern European people tend to get quite passionate and have heated debates . It's part of the culture. I myself can have quite heated discussions with my Husband ( and other people) and though neither of us have resorted to physical or psychological violence ( neither of us even swears) to an outsider I am sure some of our arguments did not always look very pretty...



Spousal abuse is a crime. Not many people would refute this. (I find that this proposal for new legislation is in a way a trivialisation of the serious issue of abuse).

And as such must be dealt with as a crime under criminal laws which are already in place.
Most abusers tend to keep their dirty little secrets very quiet anyway so the only people the police will be able to arrest are vocal people with a healthy relationship who are not afraid to air their dirty laundry in public.

Nobody will be protected by this law and innocent people will be punished for simply having a big of a good "shout" .

Laws exist in France to deal with abusers. There is no need of more bureaucracy and more legislation to deal with the issue. I think it would be a lot more beneficial if the government busybodies try to do more about trying to get to grasp with the cause of abuse and made more resources available to victims of abuse so there was a decrease in the helplessness and terror suffered by them . Basically we need to deal with the issue, not simply the symptoms.

I cannot help but feel most Western countries are drowning under scores of useless legislation when the Law simply needs to be simplified and Justice rendered accessible to all. That is really the only logical way to deal with such serious societal issues.

We should get rid of thousands of Laws and simply make the ones retained a lot easier to grasp ( Legal parlance is just too complicated for many people , loop-holes exist, money can buy the Law/Justice etc...) and fairer. That is really what the aim should be. Telling my husband he can no longer shout at me ( in public as nobody will know if he beats me up at home) is not going forward in any way shape or form.

Common sense , logic and reason have to guide the Law and this Law is a definite ass.
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Old 01-12-2010, 02:56 PM
 
Location: PA
5,560 posts, read 4,979,570 times
Reputation: 1945
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mooseketeer View Post
I completely agree with you ( apart from the odd contradiction in terms of first calling Gregw a socialist then saying it's not about socialism !). Brandying the word socialism is not particularly helpful when discussing those topics . Especially as Socialism seems a concept grossly misunderstood by so many people. France is not socialist. Even when it had a so called "socialist" government ( over 15 years ago) it was still a free market capitalist Nation just as the rest of Western Europe. Maybe not as strong a brand of pure capitalism as the US but very much capitalist nonetheless....

I am a flaming leftie and this law is absurd, ridiculous and utterly stupid. I can't even believe it will happen as it is basically un-enforcable anyway and will simply drive spousal abuse further underground so to speak.

As humans we all have arguments, we all shout and say things we regret later. It is simply a human way to behave and to try and control human emotions in that legalistic way is simply idiotic. And will not work.

Also as anyone who has been to a Latin country will know Southern European people tend to get quite passionate and have heated debates . It's part of the culture. I myself can have quite heated discussions with my Husband ( and other people) and though neither of us have resorted to physical or psychological violence ( neither of us even swears) to an outsider I am sure some of our arguments did not always look very pretty...



Spousal abuse is a crime. Not many people would refute this. (I find that this proposal for new legislation is in a way a trivialisation of the serious issue of abuse).

And as such must be dealt with as a crime under criminal laws which are already in place.
Most abusers tend to keep their dirty little secrets very quiet anyway so the only people the police will be able to arrest are vocal people with a healthy relationship who are not afraid to air their dirty laundry in public.

Nobody will be protected by this law and innocent people will be punished for simply having a big of a good "shout" .

Laws exist in France to deal with abusers. There is no need of more bureaucracy and more legislation to deal with the issue. I think it would be a lot more beneficial if the government busybodies try to do more about trying to get to grasp with the cause of abuse and made more resources available to victims of abuse so there was a decrease in the helplessness and terror suffered by them . Basically we need to deal with the issue, not simply the symptoms.

I cannot help but feel most Western countries are drowning under scores of useless legislation when the Law simply needs to be simplified and Justice rendered accessible to all. That is really the only logical way to deal with such serious societal issues.

We should get rid of thousands of Laws and simply make the ones retained a lot easier to grasp ( Legal parlance is just too complicated for many people , loop-holes exist, money can buy the Law/Justice etc...) and fairer. That is really what the aim should be. Telling my husband he can no longer shout at me ( in public as nobody will know if he beats me up at home) is not going forward in any way shape or form.

Common sense , logic and reason have to guide the Law and this Law is a definite ass.

Problem is GregW is a socialist and has said so.. while I cant say socialism is defined in this matter by this law alone but the law itself and big government falls in line with the idealogy and practices of a socialist thought process. Often social behavior and other socialist govenrments ideology can lead to this kind of control and laws. Just as in a facist and or other ideas of big government and nanny states. Socialism is just that social of which this seems to be something that would be enacted to protect people for the common good of society who believe in sharing and the responisblity of economic and social "injustices" Communist and socialist often use new ways to control peoples lives, income and other economic boundries as to REASONS why they need more government control and more money to fund and support this "new LAW"
France is also what GregW would call a Democratic Socialism which is really where thru voting we agree to have the government RUN our lives via economics and or an other forms the government DECIDES IS FAIR. France has lower forms of capitalism with the socialist platforms of economic controls and government "socialism" that comes from the power to "provide" for the many. France and the united states do not have capitalism we have lower forms of capitalism not true capitalism. Socialism has changed over the years to be redefine what it really is. CONTROL!!! If people want the rich to be taxed to give to the poor and middle class, for the government to control healthcare, the education system, your social behavior, your economic freedoms it is control. Difference is the idealogy that government for the COMMON good of society and or those who want something in means of "FAIRNESS" believe it is not socialism. They see it as justice to take from others via stealing it as good work and the governments main function. I call that socialism but via force and which Americans are stolen from by a government who believes for the common good of any group it wants to help from day to day as making everyone EQUAL!
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Old 01-12-2010, 06:45 PM
 
Location: Over There
5,129 posts, read 4,781,761 times
Reputation: 1205
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mooseketeer View Post
I thought you said you were French ? You are either American or French. Unless you have dual Nationality of course. You stated French . My Grand-Father was American, my mother is now Canadian, My other Grand-Father was Italian, the rest is a mixture of Irish and Scottish but I am sadly still French. Breton first because it is my region, European in terms of general culture because at the end of the day we are not all that different and I hate nationalism but France is what my passport states and as such I am French. French father and Mother ( at the time) and born in France. I find this "I am Welsh, French, Irish etc... from Americans quite bizarre . I would never think of calling myself American, Scottish or Italian simply because I had some American, Scottish, Italian etc.. blood.


As for stupid Laws I don't many of them come more stupid than the Patriot Act or the various policies introduced by the Labour government in the UK to align themselves with the US.


You can now be arrested under counter-terrorism measures for just about everything , for terrible crimes such as reading the names of victims of war at a cenotaph ( happened a couple of years ago) and taking photographs of double decker buses can now count as terrorism risk and thus policemen can now confiscate your photos. If that's not stupid then I don't know what is. I would argue that comes pretty close to trying to legislate shouting at your spouse. In fact is even more stupid.

At least I can see a practical application for that stupid law ( ie the prevention of marial abuse though I don't believe it would ever work). How reading some names at a Cenotaph in any way endanger our society is beyond me.

Governments by their very definition do restrict people's freedom to a certain extent. Rules and Laws are there to stop certain activities. ALL governments do this and so many laws are ridiculous that it would take a year to list them all. France is no more , no less stupid in this regard.


I note you took the easy way by basically admitting that this current proposal for this ridiculous new law is the one which was brought to your attention, happened to be in France and as such makes France ( the French government) top the idiot list. Basically you didn't seem to know much about other countries and their stupid rules.

You have little upon which to base this assumption of the level of idiocy of one nation against another apart as you couldn't come up with facts apart from ONE law . And believe me I know, France has many stupid laws. As does everywhere else.

If you want to really worry about certain laws I would start about the really serious ones depriving us of our civil liberties in a big way , like the removal of "Habeas Corpus" in the UK in recent years.

Blair laid bare: the article that may get you arrested - UK Politics, UK - The Independent

20 Stupid Laws! - N-Europe Forums
stupid laws and regulations

Police delete London tourists' photos 'to prevent terrorism' | UK news | guardian.co.uk

You did not ask where I was a citizen, you asked if I was French and yes I am. My mother is French but I guess that does not make me French enough for you.

I have explained this to the point of exhaustion. I made the comment based on the current law being purposed. I can not make it any clearer.
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