The death of logic, reason and argument. (regular, independence, abortion)
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I learned this in college - so perhaps it's not that they don't teach it, just that they don't teach it in high school. Since only 27% of Americans have a college degree, a vast majority of posters on this site may not be aware of the fallacies in their arguments that are so evident once you know how to recognize them.
Excellent link with rather humorous examples. The Wiki link I offered was very similar but a bit more dry.
Beyond using this forum as an example, (as I read through some of these) I can't help but think how many times a critical eye towards the TV news would come in handy. Most notably, "appeal to unnamed authority" ie unnamed sources.
Would be an interesting exercise to have a group of people watch the same 10 minutes worth of cable news, and then see how well it would hold up to scrutiny on its face.
I learned this in college - so perhaps it's not that they don't teach it, just that they don't teach it in high school. Since only 27% of Americans have a college degree, a vast majority of posters on this site may not be aware of the fallacies in their arguments that are so evident once you know how to recognize them.
Personally, I think the issue is far more fundamental, based on the structure and goals of education these days.
I remember (though I may pull a muscle in my brain reaching back that far), of teachers I had in school who would as a matter of course present us with information and then have open discussions about it, such as .. "OK, so why do you think George Washington did that?" Or "what do you think Thomas Jefferson was trying to say ...?"
Today, (at the risk of being called a conspiracy theorist) schools and it's government mandated curriculum and proficiency testing are designed to teach students what to think, rather than how to think. And that holds true even in higher education.
Memorize this, and repeat after me ... the closer you get, the better grade you receive. That's the formula, and it's far more indoctrination than education.
And forgive me if I inadvertently insult anyone, but I've had discussions with PhD's that I believe wouldn't be able to beat my cat in a game of checkers.
Heck, there are congressmen sitting on the House Banking and Finance committee that believe the Federal Reserve is a government agency, and I can promise you that you'll not be taught the truth about how the banking system actually works in finance and accounting.
No-sir-ree, what we have here is a failure to educate ... indoctrinate yes .. shape ideologies yes .. engineer social responses, absolutely ... but God forbid we have too many free thinkers out there questioning the status quo!! That would be disastrous.
Now I'm sure someone will underline all of the fallacies in the above
Personally, I think the issue is far more fundamental, based on the structure and goals of education these days.
I remember (though I may pull a muscle in my brain reaching back that far), of teachers I had in school who would as a matter of course present us with information and then have open discussions about it, such as .. "OK, so why do you think George Washington did that?" Or "what do you think Thomas Jefferson was trying to say ...?"
Today, (at the risk of being called a conspiracy theorist) schools and it's government mandated curriculum and proficiency testing are designed to teach students what to think, rather than how to think. And that holds true even in higher education.
Memorize this, and repeat after me ... the closer you get, the better grade you receive. That's the formula, and it's far more indoctrination than education.
And forgive me if I inadvertently insult anyone, but I've had discussions with PhD's that I believe wouldn't be able to beat my cat in a game of checkers.
Heck, there are congressmen sitting on the House Banking and Finance committee that believe the Federal Reserve is a government agency, and I can promise you that you'll not be taught the truth about how the banking system actually works in finance and accounting.
No-sir-ree, what we have here is a failure to educate ... indoctrinate yes .. shape ideologies yes .. engineer social responses, absolutely ... but God forbid we have too many free thinkers out there questioning the status quo!! That would be disastrous.
Now I'm sure someone will underline all of the fallacies in the above
Totally agree with ya.
All part of a plan set in motion many years ago......methodical and a major part of what was deemed so necessary to accomplish.......for success in the ultimate agenda of these Progs/Libs.
It helps so that history can keep repeating itself, ya know.
I'm afraid Spock-type logic may work well on a Starship of the 23rd Century but we can see that even the logic of that wonderful sci-fi series was flawed since the U.S. now struggles to even get back to the moon. And too, there are simply some areas of life where logic does not play well. Defensive driving techniques logically provide for the most safe driving environments yet offensive driving rules the highways of civilized America and I dare say most of the World. Even science, which is supposed to be relatively fallacy-free, many times allows logic to be over-ridden for the pursuit of agendas.
In short, in political debate where no one really expects to win, it may be more logical to forgo logic and use strategic tactics instead. Unfortunately, only in the confines of a very closely supervised academic debate will one find debaters restricted from using the examples of fallacy and deceit you previously posted. In American political forums like C-D, a wide range of educational levels and experiences will always prevent such structured arguments.
I'm afraid Spock-type logic may work well on a Starship of the 23rd Century but we can see that even the logic of that wonderful sci-fi series was flawed since the U.S. now struggles to even get back to the moon. And too, there are simply some areas of life where logic does not play well. Defensive driving techniques logically provide for the most safe driving environments yet offensive driving rules the highways of civilized America and I dare say most of the World. Even science, which is supposed to be relatively fallacy-free, many times allows logic to be over-ridden for the pursuit of agendas.
In short, in political debate where no one really expects to win, it may be more logical to forgo logic and use strategic tactics instead. Unfortunately, only in the confines of a very closely supervised academic debate will one find debaters restricted from using the examples of fallacy and deceit you previously posted. In American political forums like C-D, a wide range of educational levels and experiences will always prevent such structured arguments.
Well, as I pointed out, finding Spock logic is rare in any case, let alone here on this forum. I wouldn't expect it and as you said, it wouldn't be entirely applicable as many topics are subjective in their very nature, with those most commented on being approached with the strongest and most passionately held beliefs. Logic without emotional emphasis is next to impossible in the human species. (ie the abortion debate)
Would it really hurt to review and learn some of the examples provided in an attempt to elevate general discussion? Are discussions such as those that take place here and at the current level the best we should expect from people?
If placed on a scale of 1 to 10, with 1 being pure emotion and 10 being pure logic, I would hope that we could one day reach 5, as on the best day now, we are at a 2, (2.5 on a tremendous day) in my opinion. Even a 5 is a far away dream at this point.
Personally, I think the issue is far more fundamental, based on the structure and goals of education these days...
Memorize this, and repeat after me ... the closer you get, the better grade you receive. That's the formula, and it's far more indoctrination than education.
Return to your scrutiny of cause and effect. Political assertions upon budgetary process translate to elimination of subjects being taught, a reduction in their quality, and/or both when systems are in the business of self preservation.
The government tasks educators with delivering results that are measurable, yet when critical thinking skills are not valued, that lesson will be neglected/ omitted from tests. At some point in time it's bound to become apparent that this crucial element in a diet was needful, but only after the patient is declared dead as sufficient proof. We couldn't afford to be cheap about that vitamin.
Quote:
Originally Posted by GuyNTexas
And forgive me if I inadvertently insult anyone, but I've had discussions with PhD's that I believe wouldn't be able to beat my cat in a game of checkers.
I concur in limited measure but point at how specialized we as a society have become in pursuit of careers. The body of knowledge we hold, our rewards system disproportionately encouraging one specialty over another... many things have culminated in our civilization running off the Renaissance man ideal.
Last edited by harborlady; 01-21-2010 at 07:48 PM..
Reason: messy
TnHill, thanks for putting "ad hominem" on your list. I confess, I never really knew what it meant when people would put it in their post.
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