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No to mention the Haitian people are in the midst of a crisis. Offering to take these children away from their families to a "better life" with "promises of schooling, soccer fields and even a swimming pool" is emotionally manipulative in the extreme. If people really wanted to help these kids then help provide temporary housing, food, clothing, schooling, logistical assistance, and perhaps at a later stage get involved in adoptions for children that have been left orphaned.
ah hell, these people are just plain disgusting now!
this link just seems to completely contradict what these idiots have been saying. helping poor orphans? bull sh*t. they took kids FROM THEIR PARENTS! these weren't orphans or kids misplaced by the quake and wandering lost in the streets. these people claimed they wouldn't be adopting out non orphans, yet why go directly to these parents and take their kids? these kids couldn't even be legally adopted out w/o some questionable wrangling. hmm, adopting out kids that aren't orphans and weren't legally surrendered by their parents? sure sounds like something illegal was going down.
on top of that, it sounds like they lied to the parents. the parents were told they could visit the kids whenever they wanted. really, this group was going to arrange for these parents to cross international borders into the D.R. whenever they missed their kids? yeah right
they claim they went down to help orphans, but the two little girls in that article weren't orphans. yes, they were bad off, but what makes them any different from the hundreds of thousands of other children w/ poor parents? what makes these two girls, for example, so special, other than being young, cute, light skinned, easily adoptable little girls?
and most importantly, instead of wrenching these kids from their parents, why not help the parents? what made these people think that these girls would be better off w/ some strangers in a strange country vs. their own loving parents? this is why so many people are PO w/ international adoptions. are kids better off being plucked from their homeland and adopted out in other countries, or are they better off staying w/ family or adopters w/in the country? these parents could have been helped, could have kept their babies. instead, some crazy missionaries swooped in and convinced them they knew better, that these kids were better off w/ them than w/ parents who obviously loved them. please. IMO, let them rot in jail for a while
Tonight on the news they interviewed a lot of the parents whose children were on that bus. Every single one of them said they had signed permission for the missionairies to take their children because they wanted to get their children out of Haiti and have a chance at a better life. So much for the children being "stolen."
But this undercuts their story that they were helping orphans. If the missionaries KNEW the children had parents, then they actually are guilty of trying to take advantage of the situation.
I don't have any doubt that their intentions were good. But their actions were wrong. And I suspect they knew that, too. There actions imply as well a sense of entitlement that isn't just naive, but very wrong.
And this has what to do with current kidnapping?
Nothing.
It has EVERYTHING to do with the insane culture down there. Y'all take for granted just about everything we have going on in civilization. From your own link:
Quote:
What is important for us in Haiti is that a child needs to have an authorisation from this ministry to leave the country," Mr Christallin said.
He added that the children involved were aged two months to 12 years.
The earthquake destroyed a number of Haitian orphanages and crippled relevant government agencies.
So how is anyone supposed to acquire authorization if the building you go to is in a pile and former employees are dead or trapped under a pile? Red cross set up something? How is anyone supposed to know when there is no formal communications system set up?
You want a villain? These are the men who raped their country-- they had a national policy of harvesting child labor by force, and that's why Haiti is so touchy about the situation present tense. Aristede abolished the practice, but he's guilty of his own brand of evils. It's also why this relatively small island is fierce about that line of demarcation because dominican republic gov't sends troops to haiti to 'harvest' children for their own purposes. There is also reason to believe through govt policy baby doc cashed out the timber resources to line his own pocket prior to his exile.
In a January 1988 interview with National Catholic Reporter, Aristide said,"The solution is revolution, first in the spirit of the Gospel; Jesus could not accept people going hungry. It is a conflict between classes, rich and poor. My role is to preach and organize...." [7] Father Aristide was expelled from his Salesian order in 1988, [5] at which time the Salesians said the priest's political activities were an "incitement to hatred and violence" and out of line with his role as a clergyman.[7] In 1994 Aristide left the priesthood.[8
Haitian Earthquake: Made in the USA - Current News & Events | Forums at Chris Martenson
The above link has a video feed at #96 to give you an idea of what insanity existed prior to earthquakes. If someone has skills that I do not, please find a way to transfer that video link to this forum, because it's not my intention to defy tos. I simply don't know how to translate it because the url doesn't show. The strife is longstanding-- more than 6 generations. Nobody can trust anyone-- ask amnesty international about haitian national police, and the UN forces working with them in futile attempts to restore order. People by and large now distrust UN forces and have no reason to believe they ought to trust their govt. Every ounce of goodwill attempts down there gets co-opted for nefarious purposes, and treachery is the norm.
So whom is the proper authority to petition in such a climate? Missionaries and peacekeeping/ human rights activists alike are being massacred. So are UN forces. So have journalists- murdered for being witness to human rights abuses. When UN is fed wrongful information by politicians attempting to use them as catspaw, they inadvertently become the bad guys. Churches and missionaries are being attacked by political forces garnering power through corrupt means and wielding it if you fail to cooperate. Find out who is Group 184.
Do I think these people from Iowa are naive & misguided? Hell yeah. In way over their heads? More than they could ever know. Do I believe they went in with the best of intentions? Absolutely. Did they conduct themselves as kidnappers? No. I have every reason to believe that parents were attempting to shield their children from harm by willingly handing them over to these volunteers. On the best day of the year, normal circumstances, violence, theft, political strife, poverty, and chaos rule the population. Interview the boat people coming here for over half a century.
Of course facts have still remain to surface, but the likelihood that justice will be served (guilty or not) is slim to none when the only reason this incident would make international news is for the purpose of manipulating a story to perpetuate chaos, violence, and hatred. Liberals and neocons alike abuse the truth to serve their confirmation biases and garner power at the expense of human life. You've proven your own prejudices etched upon infinite archives of internet. No one in this forum is willing to believe they're grossly misinformed. You're addicted to ticker tape information fed to you leading you around by the nose.
Bush and Clinton, like all missionaries, like amnesty international, like UN forces, are forced to work with what they have to work with in attempts to help. Presuming guilt, you are also guilty of feeding the greater ocean of chaos battering these people relentlessly.
What it shows is that a bunch of people need to lewt those that know the laws and can do the paperwork handle such things. Een with good will ;you need to know waht you are doinh. Bascailly if they had taken my child after such a even I would expect the government here to stop them as was done at the border. So now its upto the justice system to decide; as they definely tired to take the children out of country.
Parents willingly gave children to US Baptists - Yahoo! News (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100204/ap_on_re_la_am_ca/cb_haiti_americans_detained - broken link)
"It is clear now that they were trying to cross the border without papers. It is clear now that some of the children have live parents. And it is clear now that they knew what they were doing was wrong," the Haitian prime minister said.
In Washington, Secretary of State Hillary Rodham Clinton said the attempt to bring undocumented children out of Haiti was "unfortunate whatever the motivation" and the Americans should have followed proper procedures. She said U.S. officials were in discussions with Haitian authorities about how to resolve the case.
The contradictions in this group's stories are amazing.
They seem to change daily.
Missionaries are not the same as people going to help.
They are not equipped to deal with this type of disaster, get in the way and are obviously there for selfish reasons.
If they're not a government entity supporting the victims and infrastructure, they have no reason to be there.
Being a missionary does not give people carte blanche.
It's exceptionally erroneous to think that the Department of State has to be involved with this absurdity when time and money could be used for real help. It is now being diverted to these boneheads.
I don't care about their intentions (again, they use the god defense); their actions are illegal and they deserve to be prosecuted.
It has EVERYTHING to do with the insane culture down there. Y'all take for granted just about everything we have going on in civilization. From your own link:
So how is anyone supposed to acquire authorization if the building you go to is in a pile and former employees are dead or trapped under a pile? Red cross set up something? How is anyone supposed to know when there is no formal communications system set up?
You want a villain? These are the men who raped their country-- they had a national policy of harvesting child labor by force, and that's why Haiti is so touchy about the situation present tense. Aristede abolished the practice, but he's guilty of his own brand of evils. It's also why this relatively small island is fierce about that line of demarcation because dominican republic gov't sends troops to haiti to 'harvest' children for their own purposes. There is also reason to believe through govt policy baby doc cashed out the timber resources to line his own pocket prior to his exile.
Haitian Earthquake: Made in the USA - Current News & Events | Forums at Chris Martenson
The above link has a video feed at #96 to give you an idea of what insanity existed prior to earthquakes. If someone has skills that I do not, please find a way to transfer that video link to this forum, because it's not my intention to defy tos. I simply don't know how to translate it because the url doesn't show. The strife is longstanding-- more than 6 generations. Nobody can trust anyone-- ask amnesty international about haitian national police, and the UN forces working with them in futile attempts to restore order. People by and large now distrust UN forces and have no reason to believe they ought to trust their govt. Every ounce of goodwill attempts down there gets co-opted for nefarious purposes, and treachery is the norm.
So whom is the proper authority to petition in such a climate? Missionaries and peacekeeping/ human rights activists alike are being massacred. So are UN forces. So have journalists- murdered for being witness to human rights abuses. When UN is fed wrongful information by politicians attempting to use them as catspaw, they inadvertently become the bad guys. Churches and missionaries are being attacked by political forces garnering power through corrupt means and wielding it if you fail to cooperate. Find out who is Group 184.
Do I think these people from Iowa are naive & misguided? Hell yeah. In way over their heads? More than they could ever know. Do I believe they went in with the best of intentions? Absolutely. Did they conduct themselves as kidnappers? No. I have every reason to believe that parents were attempting to shield their children from harm by willingly handing them over to these volunteers. On the best day of the year, normal circumstances, violence, theft, political strife, poverty, and chaos rule the population. Interview the boat people coming here for over half a century.
Of course facts have still remain to surface, but the likelihood that justice will be served (guilty or not) is slim to none when the only reason this incident would make international news is for the purpose of manipulating a story to perpetuate chaos, violence, and hatred. Liberals and neocons alike abuse the truth to serve their confirmation biases and garner power at the expense of human life. You've proven your own prejudices etched upon infinite archives of internet. No one in this forum is willing to believe they're grossly misinformed. You're addicted to ticker tape information fed to you leading you around by the nose.
Bush and Clinton, like all missionaries, like amnesty international, like UN forces, are forced to work with what they have to work with in attempts to help. Presuming guilt, you are also guilty of feeding the greater ocean of chaos battering these people relentlessly.
I'm sorry, but what the HELL does most of this have to do w/ the situation at hand? what was the point of bringing up Baby Doc and Aristide? did I miss the article claiming the Duvaliers rose up from the grave and took part in this mess? did deforestation play a direct role in taking over a dozen children from their parents and trying to illegally take them into another country? you went on some long ramble there that has little to do w/ the issue at hand
FACT: 10 Americans went down to Haiti during a major natural catastrophe during a time when many people are being told to stay away so as not to impede the rescue mission
FACT: these Americans were caught trying to take 33 children across international borders into the DR w/o proper documents and passports
FACT: despite their initial claims of being there to help orphans, the majority of these kids were not orphans
FACT: regardless of their intentions, these Americans broke the law
you ask how are people supposed to get authorization when so many buildings were destroyed? well, that's why all adoptions, others than those already completed before the quake, were HALTED. it's a mess down there and adoptions are the last things on the gov't and most missionaries' mind right now.
at some point in your useless ramble, I think I picked up a sentiment that I wonder if these American missionaries might have thought too: "well Haiti was basically lawless and corrupt before the quake, why should rules and laws matter now?" well, go down there w/ that BS mentality and guess what? you end up in jail like these fools did
I have no clue what was the point of your nonsensical, off topic rant, but let's bring it back to the present now and instead of trying to somehow blame this on long dead dictators, ousted presidents, and neocons or whatever it was you said, let's face it, these people f*cked up. they appeared to have lied and they broke the law. and lastly, what they did doesn't sit morally well w/ me personally. instead of helping these families in Haiti, trying to help them keep and feed their children, they took their children under very questionable circumstances. so yes, in this particular issue, w/ the facts learned by now they are the main villains here
Chiel their intentions, their behavior, their actions... you have attributed in your mind all these things to the very definition of religion. That's where you go horribly wrong. That's where your own prejudices stand out like a canker sore to the world. Your pants are down and I'm not going to be like the rest of your pals who look the other way.
KKK doesn't represent christianity. Flawed human beings attempting to do what they think is right under insane circumstances does not represent christianity. These misguided people (right or wrong) DO NOT represent America. Your logic, your consistent posts, conclude the same erroneous assumption that religion is crime. That missionaries are deliberately trying to facilitate crime. When the pope visits and tells the haitian government he's disturbed by what he sees, this needs to change- is he abusing his authority? When the church renounces aristede hiding behind a collar to promote violence and hatred-- they don't get credit for policing themselves?
Chiele in your world, nothing christians do could possibly be right. Like misogynists believing nothing women do could possibly be right, you too take the attitude that nothing men do is right. You have become what you hate. That's how you've personified prejudice hanging out under the flag of liberalism. That is how you feed right wing extremism justifying their attitude that all liberals ought to be annihilated. How can you continue being this blind to yourself?
You put me on your buddy list for a reason. I welcome you to toss me in the trash if you have that much contempt for my core being. If I see christians doing something wrong, I call them on it. When I see liberals doing something wrong, expect to be called on it. If you prefer to vilify me as the cause of all human suffering because I'm religious, see how far that gets you in life. You're doing it to yourself just as neocons have, and the rest of us trying to work on solutions can only hope you both go politically extinct forever. You've frustrated things that badly. You are the albatross around the neck of dems the very same way religious right is around the neck of repubs.
I'm sorry, but what the HELL does most of this have to do w/ the situation at hand?
Your presumptions that any sense or normalcy is possible in Haiti is the problem. You were free to educate yourself and opted for sound bytes.
FACT: Sound byte journalism gives people a false sense of reality because information is predigested with forgone conclusions.
FACT: The longstanding history of Haiti is the full illustration of what relief workers, missionaries, our govt, human rights advocates et al have had to deal with all along (the reason why billions are being poured into a veritable black hole of treachery)
FACT: We are conditioned to believe in our american brains that it's just a matter of donating 25 cents a day, that false representations are facts, and that all we have to do is teach them the Disney American way.
FACT: There was no formal way to get proper documents in those circumstances. Breaking of laws happens in martial law conditions, and not all of it is in fact criminal behavior. If I'm scavenging for medical supplies in the rubble of a hospital, it's not stealing if it's attending to patients. Some are orphans, some are not, and the allegations that children have been 'stolen' need to be made by parents, not the kangaroo court of the press or misguided border guards having memories of a former gov't policy of enslaving children for $$$.
FACT: If you're trapped in your car while it's on fire and I break your windshield to get you out, in your mentality, I should be arrested for property damage.
FACT: In your mentality, because you failed to understand, failed to read additional facts, failed to open your mind to any other possibilities beyond your disney brain, that makes me and everyone else who disagrees with you 'ignorant'.
[/quote]
The saddest part of all huck is that the law is corrupted by populist rage and power hungry politicians alike. We are no better than they if this forum were any measure.
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