Why are so many on the left NOT religious? (lobbyists, lobby, working)
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And, it's also obvious that you took far more offense at my words than I did yours.
I believe you've missed my point. Disagreement does not necessarily mean taking offense. I care not what YOUR beliefs in this are, but objected to your INTOLERANCE of the beliefs of others. That's all!
IF YOU are an atheist... Why do you deny others the free exercise of their individual right to choose to believe what they want? I see no equivalence on their side to deny you YOUR right! Why do you constantly deprecate such beliefs with remarks indicating said believers are less than intelligent, for NOT BEING LIKE YOU? I see no equivalence on their side to deny you YOUR right!
If you are NOT an atheist...what is the point?
I find it interesting that I've been open and stated my personal beliefs so YOU may have a proper perspective of where I'm coming from. You, on the other hand, have volunteered nothing, so I must make assumptions. Not a good thing!
In that "personal" vein I'll even go further and state that the reason I do not follow an "organized" religion is simple and two-fold:
1. I require no third party to get in between, set standards for and translate my personal relationship with The Almighty.
2. I find that "organized" religion is self-destructive in that if one believes in 'only one road to Rome; as a metaphorical reference, then it follows suit that they deny all others. This establishes the acrimony between faiths that history bears witness to and why "religion" in and of itself has been the cause of most of the world problems. It, of the necessity of dedicated intensity of one belief, cultivates and propagates intolerance as a by-product.
You'd be surprised how many people actually agree with me, but are reticent, for whatever reason/s, to state so publicly. I am not so encumbered. I run into a lot in personal one-on-one casual conversations.
I took no offense at anything you said. I simply challenged your assertion that religious faith is beyond the comprehension of nonbelievers. Actually there's nothing mysterious or complicated about it at all. It's simple unquestioning belief in an idea via a process of indoctrination that usually begins at birth. If you had been born in Salt Lake City you would be a Mormon. If you were born in Bahgdad you would be a Muslim. If you were born in Bangledesh you would be a Hindu and on and on ad nauseam each and every faith laying claim to the only true path to salvation.
The absurdity and irrationality of the above scenario as well as the concept of faith in general should be glaringly obvious and yet the faithful do not see. I would suggest that counter to your claim, it is only the nonbeliever that can truly understand faith and see it for what it is: self deception. For the faithful are akin to the men standing too close to the trees to see the forest while the atheist or agnostic has the requisite perspective to see the big picture.
And, it's also obvious that you took far more offense at my words than I did yours.
whether you believe in god or do not believe in god it takes faith. Neither side can prove what they assert
IF YOU are an atheist... Why do you deny others the free exercise of their individual right to choose to believe what they want? I see no equivalence on their side to deny you YOUR right! Why do you constantly deprecate such beliefs with remarks indicating said believers are less than intelligent, for NOT BEING LIKE YOU? I see no equivalence on their side to deny you YOUR right!
Just as only a minority of people-with-faith are in the business of proselytizing, only a minority of atheists want to "shut down the believes of the believers".
Personally, I think comments like "I'm just saying that when push comes to shove when it (whatever it is) hits the fan God will be the first one you call......" are just as disparaging as calling Jesus names like "Magic Jesus".
But I'll put it in clear English so that you and others can understand.
We, non-believers, do not want to deter you from your beliefs. They are yours and that is fine. However, we do not feel it is appropriate for believers to exploit their faith in order to influence the lives of non-believers.
whether you believe in god or do not believe in god it takes faith. Neither side can prove what they assert
This attempt to equate atheism with theism is logical fallacy. There is no faith requirement for atheist, present observable and testable evidence that god exists and atheist would change their mind on the subject, however for the religious, as a result of their "faith", no amount of observable and testable evidence would deter them from their beliefs, that is the nature of faith.
To quote the Catholic Encyclopedia:
The twofold order of knowledge. — "The Catholic Church", says the Vatican Council, III, iv, "has always held that there is a twofold order of knowledge, and that these two orders are distinguished from one another not only in their principle but in their object; in one we know by natural reason, in the other by Divine faith; the object of the one is truth attainable by natural reason, the object of the other is mysteries hidden in God, but which we have to believe and which can only be known to us by Divine revelation."
This attempt to equate atheism with theism is logical fallacy. There is no faith requirement for atheist, present observable and testable evidence that god exists and atheist would change their mind on the subject, however for the religious, as a result of their "faith", no amount of observable and testable evidence would deter them from their beliefs, that is the nature of faith.
To quote the Catholic Encyclopedia:
The twofold order of knowledge. — "The Catholic Church", says the Vatican Council, III, iv, "has always held that there is a twofold order of knowledge, and that these two orders are distinguished from one another not only in their principle but in their object; in one we know by natural reason, in the other by Divine faith; the object of the one is truth attainable by natural reason, the object of the other is mysteries hidden in God, but which we have to believe and which can only be known to us by Divine revelation."
Just as only a minority of people-with-faith are in the business of proselytizing, only a minority of atheists want to "shut down the believes of the believers". (I would yield that you may actually be correct here, but it's an unfortunate thing today that perception is reality. With atheists staging legal challenges constantly against any public displays of even the reference to God in government, you can understand why the perception is as I stated.)
Personally, I think comments like "I'm just saying that when push comes to shove when it (whatever it is) hits the fan God will be the first one you call......" are just as disparaging as calling Jesus names like "Magic Jesus".
(Not sure who said that, but it wasn't I.)
But I'll put it in clear English so that you and others can understand.
We, non-believers, do not want to deter you from your beliefs. They are yours and that is fine. However, we do not feel it is appropriate for believers to exploit their faith in order to influence the lives of non-believers. (Please clarify what this means..." in clear English so that you and others can understand"..., please. Believers believe in the Bill of Rights and Constitution as non-believers should also. Such guarantees freedom of religion, not freedom from religion.)
As a left leaning--yet devout--evangelical christian, I find myself in a very small minority among right wing churchgoers and secular leftists, making me wonder why so many on the left are NOT religious. I'm not necessarily saying that it's bad, but I'm just curious.
Of course we could also ask why so many churchgoers are right wing, but this is aimed more at the liberals on this board. Well, I have to go to work, so I'll check back later. Thanks for responding.
mackinac
We could also ask why so many faithful churchgoers are hypocritical, and would never make it into Heaven.
I find it exceedingly hard to go with your contention that few "left leaning -- yet devout --" () evangelical Christians exist.
I would yield that you may actually be correct here, but it's an unfortunate thing today that perception is reality. With atheists staging legal challenges constantly against any public displays of even the reference to God in government, you can understand why the perception is as I stated.
It almost seems as though you feel their objections to be frivolous. Is it not a valid claim to ask that people keep their faith beliefs and the government we all share separate?
Quote:
Originally Posted by doctorhugo
Not sure who said that, but it wasn't I.
Never said it was you who made the statement. I won't give any names, but both were said in this thread alone.
Quote:
Originally Posted by doctorhugo
Please clarify what this means..." in clear English so that you and others can understand"..., please.
Here's a common one used right here on City-Data: "The Bible says marriage is only between one man and one woman."
If you want a legal example of this very same idea, see Bush circa 2004:
Quote:
"The union of a man and a woman is the most enduring human institution, honored and encouraged in all cultures and by every religious faith"
And he went on to enact DoMA.
Quote:
Originally Posted by doctorhugo
Believers believe in the Bill of Rights and Constitution as non-believers should also. Such guarantees freedom of religion, not freedom from religion.
But do not laws against murder prevent a man from exercising his freedom of religion to stone his strumpet daughter?
Although Government and Religion are siblings (the Children of Man), they should be kept in separate rooms. There are too many flavors of Religion that can and have been crowing Government.
((We should probably also give them separate bathrooms, too))
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Zekester
) evangelical Christians exist.
