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Old 05-31-2007, 09:57 AM
 
Location: Maine
22,896 posts, read 28,171,272 times
Reputation: 31133

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Quote:
Originally Posted by lionking View Post
Before you say Iraq didn't have anything to do with 9-11...maybe, maybe not but because of it we went there.If the muslims really wanted us out of their lands,they went about it the wrong way because now we are there more then ever before.
Which is EXACTLY what bin Laden wanted. Bin Laden wanted a war with the West, and Bush gave it to him. Bush gave bin Laden exactly what he wanted.



Quote:
Originally Posted by lionking View Post
Im tired of hearing how the U.S is a bully,what did you think we would do after 9- 11?
Well, what we should have done is gone after the people responsible and taken actions to make sure it doesn't happen again. Bush's actions have only worsened the problem.
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Old 05-31-2007, 10:57 AM
 
Location: Port St. Lucie and Okeechobee, FL
1,307 posts, read 5,496,652 times
Reputation: 1116
Quote:
Originally Posted by lionking View Post
...No one ever questions Afghanistan,we are there too,are we bullies to the world because of that?So when ever foreigner says he hates America because of Bush,why? just because of Iraq or other things too?.Why do people focus so much on one thing...Iraq when ever day we see what muslims do?What is it about Iraq that the world denounces us so when everday there is a dirty little war going on somewhere that they don't give 2 s***'s about?
You took the time to ask questions rather than just rant, so I will take the time to answer your questions.

"No one ever questions Afghanistan,we are there too,are we bullies to the world because of that?"

No. In fact, a large proportion or the world, including many Muslim nations, supported our efforts in Afghanistan. Al Quaeda had moved their headquarters and training grounds to Afghanistan, and supported the Taliban with financing. In return, the Taliban turned a blind eye to al Quaeda. AFter we determined that al Quaeda was responsible for 9/11, we took out the Taliban so we could go after al Quaeda. The evidence was clear, and the world supported us. We had a real coalition there, and the UN is now taking up our slack -- a further indication that we got Afghanistan right.

"So when ever foreigner says he hates America because of Bush,why? just because of Iraq or other things too?"

Just because of Iraq, for the most part. The USA has always been out of favor in some areas of the world, but that is true regardless of who is President. It was Bush who ignored all advice and twisted the facts in order to justify an invasion of Iraq. The rest of the world, and a significant number of Americans at the time (and more than 70% of Americans, today) recognized that Bush and his advisors were invading the sovereignty of a nation for very flimsy reasons. That's why most of the world's nations refused to join a coalition, or even to support us, over that invasion. Only Britain among the world's so-called "great" powers supported us. There were a very few troops from Spain, Poland and a few even smaller nations, all of who have since pulled out, and all of whom we "bought".

"Why do people focus so much on one thing...Iraq when ever day we see what muslims do?"


Well, tell me, what do Muslims do?

First of all, it is the world's secong largest religion, with approximately 1.3 Billion adherents. While there are 2.1 Billion self-described Christians, it can be argued that most Muslims are strict practitioners while a significant number of Christians do not practice, so there is a good chance that there are more committed and active Muslims than committed and active Christians.

Second, the Muslims we see committing acts of terrorism are a small minority of Muslims who are Islamic fundamentalists, about the same percentage of Christian fundamentalists who do nutty things like kill abortion doctors and protest the funerals of brave American soldiers. There is that same percentage of nut fringe in any large group, including Muslims, Christians, Girl Scouts and Shriners. If you are a reasonable and rational person of moderate intelligence, you cannot blame the entire group for the actions of the fringe lunatics. That is why even our President has repeatedly stated that this is NOT a war against Muslims. Not all Muslims are terrorists, and not all terrorists are Muslims. You MUST understand this basic fact in order to get a grasp on everything else that is happening.

People are focused on Iraq because we made a massive mistake -- a colossal error in judgment -- when we invaded that nation, and we are making that mistake worse every day that we remain there. WHY that was (and is) a mistake is beyond the space in this forum, and has been thoroughly discussed, and is accepted by the vast majority of Americans, today. Suffice to say, we invaded a nation that regardless of how "bad" they might be, was no threat -- let me repeat that, NO THREAT to the United States.

"What is it about Iraq that the world denounces us so when everday there is a dirty little war going on somewhere that they don't give 2 s***'s about?"

We didn't INVADE and of those other countries where there are drty little wars which ware jut as bad, and very often worse, than what was happening in Iraq. We invaded Iraq, for reasons that no one is sure about yet, although there are plentyof theories flying around yet. The only thing we're sure of, given the results, is that the reasons were not good enough.
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Old 05-31-2007, 11:00 AM
 
Location: Coming soon to a town near YOU!
989 posts, read 2,759,133 times
Reputation: 1526
Default Disconnect is part of the problem

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve-o View Post
May the terrorists suffer. One of my favorite tunes from Metallica is titled "Don't tread on me".
Does anybody think that a "Metallica Based" foreign policy is a good thing?

Quote:
Originally Posted by silas777 View Post
and evelo didn't think you guys existed!
Silas777, you forgot your original question!!! You opened the thread by saying...
Quote:
Originally Posted by silas777 View Post
I know that there is a lot of people on this forum that believe that the only real terrorists are Bush and Cheney. [/url]
Somebody saying that Bush is a terrorist is a completely different concept than your original question of *the only terrorists*. Are you back to your old tricks again?

And as an FYI... there wasn't any Al Qaeda in Iraq until about a year after we invaded... and even then it was a group changing their name (YEP, Iraq Al Qaeda had nothing to do with 9-11). If I change my last name to "Hilton", that won't make Paris my sister.
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Old 05-31-2007, 11:03 AM
 
Location: Maine
22,896 posts, read 28,171,272 times
Reputation: 31133
Quote:
Originally Posted by pslOldTimer View Post
First of all, it is the world's second largest religion, with approximately 1.3 Billion adherents.
Really??? I thought the Hindus still outnumbered Muslims worldwide. Is that right?

Islam is actually the fastest growing religion in the world. More converts per year than any other religion.
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Old 05-31-2007, 11:20 AM
 
Location: Port St. Lucie and Okeechobee, FL
1,307 posts, read 5,496,652 times
Reputation: 1116
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark S. View Post
Really??? I thought the Hindus still outnumbered Muslims worldwide. Is that right?

Islam is actually the fastest growing religion in the world. More converts per year than any other religion.
I Googled it before I stated it. I tend to do that, because I hate to lose an argument.
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Old 05-31-2007, 11:21 AM
 
Location: Maine
22,896 posts, read 28,171,272 times
Reputation: 31133
Quote:
Originally Posted by pslOldTimer View Post
I Googled it before I stated it.
Ah, Google. Well then it must be true.

Seriously though, you might well be right. I just wasn't sure.
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Old 05-31-2007, 11:27 AM
 
Location: Port St. Lucie and Okeechobee, FL
1,307 posts, read 5,496,652 times
Reputation: 1116
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark S. View Post
Ah, Google. Well then it must be true.
I note your smiley. Still, I'm compelled to say that Google doesn't create the information, it just collects it. I think most people are able to judge the quality of the information that is presented.
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Old 05-31-2007, 11:31 AM
 
Location: Port St. Lucie and Okeechobee, FL
1,307 posts, read 5,496,652 times
Reputation: 1116
Quote:
Originally Posted by lionking View Post
...Before you say Iraq didn't have anything to do with 9-11...maybe, maybe not but because of it we went there.If the muslims really wanted us out of their lands,they went about it the wrong way because now we are there more then ever before.
There is a difference between terrorism and insurgency.

Terrorism is those acts which are intended to create fear or "terror", are perpetrated for an ideological goal, and deliberately target "non-combatants.

Insurgency is an armed uprising, or revolt against an established civil or political authority. Persons engaging in insurgency are called insurgents, and typically engage in regular or guerrilla combat against the armed forces of the established regime, or conduct sabotage and harassment in the land in order to undermine the government's position as leader.

Terrorists attacked the United States on 9/11/2001. Insurgents are fighting against our imposed regime in Iraq. Even the White House and the Pentagon refer to the opponents in Iraq as "insurgents". There is a vast difference. Our war in Iraq has never had anything to do with the war on terrorism The profoundly sad irony is that there were few, if any, insurgents in Iraq before we invaded. They were created out of Iraqi patriots fighting for control of their own country against a mighty, foreign invader who had no business being there. And, there were multiplied by fellow Shiites or Sunnis who rushed to Iraq to support their brothers.

The more we continue to hold control of a nationnot our own, the more they will fight, and the more angry they will become. And, the angrier they become, the more likely it is that they will cross the line from insurgency into terrorism. So, the incredible irony is that aour so-called "war on terrorism" is simply creating MORE terrorists.

Will they "follow us home" if we leave Iraq? Most will not. They want us out; they will be satisfied when we leave. Some may continue to attack the U.S. at home or abroad. The terrible reality is that there are more of them as a result of OUR actions. We were attacked by 19 men on 9/11; there are now tens of thousands of angry, committed and experienced opponents as a result of our invasion. IIt's possible that many will "follow us home". But, logically, the answer to that is not to continue to fight them over there. There are more of them over there than us, they are getting angrier and angrier, and they are gaining more and more experience. They have already killed more than 3,000 of our brave troops; does it make sense to continue to throw away those lives when the situation is getting worse, not better?

They may indeed follow us home, and some of us might be killed as a result. That's the price we pay for making such a colossal mistake by invading in the first place. We can create ways to fight them here, and can certainly use the money we are wasting in Iraq to increase our Homeland Security.

We must continue the war against terrorism, even in the face of all the new terrorists created by our actions in Iraq. We MUST NOT, however, continue a war against insurgents. That gains us nothing and helps the enemy.
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Old 05-31-2007, 02:54 PM
 
Location: New Jersey
986 posts, read 2,805,058 times
Reputation: 849
Islamic radical terrorist groups are planning and telling us that we are going to be attacked again!! They write about it, they make videos and send them to our news. No-one is paying attention or cares. Maybe some of us do. They want to kill us or convert us. If we are in Iraq or not they still want to kill us. It is what the radical muslims believe. It is what they are taught in schools for centurys, this is not new. I can't believe there are people out there who think we some how deserve to have our planes turned into missiles, or think people who strap bombs to themselves and kill americans and our soldiers can be delt with in a reasonable way. We need to get them before they get us, and they will because they say so every chance they get. They do not hide it, they are right up front with what they want to do. There are good muslims out there but they are afraid to speak out. It is sad and scary. I may not be as articulate as some on this forum but I wanted to express my views.
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Old 05-31-2007, 03:36 PM
 
20,263 posts, read 19,850,330 times
Reputation: 13349
Quote:
Originally Posted by pslOldTimer View Post
.....second, the Muslims we see committing acts of terrorism are a small minority of Muslims who are Islamic fundamentalists, about the same percentage of Christian fundamentalists who do nutty things like kill abortion doctors and protest the funerals of brave American soldiers. There is that same percentage of nut fringe in any large group, including Muslims, Christians, Girl Scouts and Shriners.
Your kidding right? I'll give you 100 homicide bombings over the last 30 years for every abortion clinic bombing. Maybe 1,000.

And as soon as I see the bloody effects of radical Girl Scouts and Shriners over and over and over again along with them jumping up and down like a bunch of savages screaming "death to everyone we don't agree with" I'll start having less than "We Are the World" thoughts about the GSs and Shriners.
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