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Old 03-13-2010, 07:42 PM
 
Location: Duluth, Minnesota, USA
7,641 posts, read 18,086,955 times
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One of the most shocking moves by what I call the "libertinism movement" has been proclamations on the "sexual and reproductive rights of children". According to this presentation (http://www.wpf.org/documenten/children%200-12.pdf - broken link), sex education should be started earlier to "respect the rights of young children". One of the "preconditions for a healthy sexual development", taken from the same source, is "possibility for discovering own body and the bodies of peers in a playful way." Many other sites out there advocate for childrens' sexual "rights"...examples include http://www.wpf.org/documenten/children%200-12.pdf (broken link) and http://www.wpf.org/documenten/children%200-12.pdf (broken link) . While the content contained within these documents presents a still somewhat radical stance in the U.S., expect it to become mainstream soon if things keep heading the way that they are (e.g. legal same-sex "marriage"). What I've done then, to get a sense of the opinions dominant on this forum, is created five scenarios in which YOU will answer whether the subjects' (all minors) sexual rights were "violated":

1. Should an 11 year old couple be granted the freedom to touch eachother's private parts? Would a withholding of that freedom from them - provided that it does not interfere with the activities of others - be a violation of their "sexual rights"?

2. Does a 14 year old boy have the right to view pornographic videos of consenting adults having sex? Would it be a violation of his "sexual rights" if a parent stepped in and told him he couldn't?

3. Does a 15 year old girl, recently impregnated after a one-night stand, have the absolute right to an abortion?

4. A 16-year-old boy has recently come out of the closet, despite parental opposition to his lifestyle. This year he wants to march in the Southern Comfort Gay Pride Parade. His parents say "no". Is his right of free expression violated, and should the government punish his parents?

5. A mother of a girl of 17 recently discovers she has been sexually active. If she issues an absolute ultimatum forbidding sex, does this violate the girl's sexual rights?

Do sexual "rights" for youth extend beyond the negative right to not be predated upon by adults to some set of positive rights?
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Old 03-13-2010, 08:07 PM
 
Location: Hades
2,126 posts, read 2,378,031 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tvdxer View Post
One of the most shocking moves by what I call the "libertinism movement" has been proclamations on the "sexual and reproductive rights of children". According to this presentation (http://www.wpf.org/documenten/children%200-12.pdf - broken link), sex education should be started earlier to "respect the rights of young children". One of the "preconditions for a healthy sexual development", taken from the same source, is "possibility for discovering own body and the bodies of peers in a playful way." Many other sites out there advocate for childrens' sexual "rights"...examples include http://www.wpf.org/documenten/children%200-12.pdf (broken link) and http://www.wpf.org/documenten/children%200-12.pdf (broken link) . While the content contained within these documents presents a still somewhat radical stance in the U.S., expect it to become mainstream soon if things keep heading the way that they are (e.g. legal same-sex "marriage"). What I've done then, to get a sense of the opinions dominant on this forum, is created five scenarios in which YOU will answer whether the subjects' (all minors) sexual rights were "violated":

1. Should an 11 year old couple be granted the freedom to touch eachother's private parts? Would a withholding of that freedom from them - provided that it does not interfere with the activities of others - be a violation of their "sexual rights"?

2. Does a 14 year old boy have the right to view pornographic videos of consenting adults having sex? Would it be a violation of his "sexual rights" if a parent stepped in and told him he couldn't?

3. Does a 15 year old girl, recently impregnated after a one-night stand, have the absolute right to an abortion?

4. A 16-year-old boy has recently come out of the closet, despite parental opposition to his lifestyle. This year he wants to march in the Southern Comfort Gay Pride Parade. His parents say "no". Is his right of free expression violated, and should the government punish his parents?

5. A mother of a girl of 17 recently discovers she has been sexually active. If she issues an absolute ultimatum forbidding sex, does this violate the girl's sexual rights?

Do sexual "rights" for youth extend beyond the negative right to not be predated upon by adults to some set of positive rights?
Well the presentation you cite is written by a Dutch women in a country that has one of the lowest rates of teen births (and probably abuse) on the European continent. I wonder if the American-bible -thumping-abstinence- rooting, teenage children having populace is sort of missing the ENTIRE point. City Data forum is mostly populated with American posters. I doubt any Dutch person who is affected by these ideas is even going to bother hopping on this thread to explain things to you.

I don't think you can expect the stuff in those documents to become mainstream in America any time soon. Europeans, in general, grow up with a far more accepting view of nudity as well as depictions of sex. Are their children more demented and sexually reckless b/c of it? HARDLY. It's a common fact- in the States, we like our media with a ****load of violence and in Europe, they'll take an exposed boob over senseless fictional killings anyday.

I'm not going to answer your questions point by point, though I am sure many other posters will feel compelled to. But in brief, children of any nationality do engage in "body play." It's pretty friggin normal. Intervening and stopping it from continuing is the role of an adult in many cases. Kids dont understand the sexual implications and it's not their fault.

14 year old boys viewing porn videos? Anywhere on earth where there is uncensored internet you'll have 14 year old boys finding porn videos. And yes, it is the role of the adult to censor this. If the Dutch woman in the article you cite states that this is a "sexual right" of these boys, all I can say is that things are probably going down a lot different in the Netherlands. I wouldn't trust American adolescents with this right, frankly.
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Old 03-13-2010, 08:39 PM
 
Location: Duluth, Minnesota, USA
7,641 posts, read 18,086,955 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NomadScribe View Post
Well the presentation you cite is written by a Dutch women in a country that has one of the lowest rates of teen births (and probably abuse) on the European continent. I wonder if the American-bible -thumping-abstinence- rooting, teenage children having populace is sort of missing the ENTIRE point. City Data forum is mostly populated with American posters. I doubt any Dutch person who is affected by these ideas is even going to bother hopping on this thread to explain things to you.
Yes, but do they have the lowest rate of teen SEX on the continent? What about teen abortions?

Quote:
I don't think you can expect the stuff in those documents to become mainstream in America any time soon. Europeans, in general, grow up with a far more accepting view of nudity as well as depictions of sex. Are their children more demented and sexually reckless b/c of it? HARDLY. It's a common fact- in the States, we like our media with a ****load of violence and in Europe, they'll take an exposed boob over senseless fictional killings anyday.
Yes, but nudity and sex do something that violence doesn't: it incites lust, which is equated with adultery in the gospel.

(Although I agree that there's too much violence in our media)

Quote:
I'm not going to answer your questions point by point, though I am sure many other posters will feel compelled to. But in brief, children of any nationality do engage in "body play." It's pretty friggin normal. Intervening and stopping it from continuing is the role of an adult in many cases. Kids dont understand the sexual implications and it's not their fault.
That example didn't concern 5- or 6 year olds, who may or may not understand the sexual implications of their act. It was of an 11 year old couple, perhaps beginning puberty. Apparently, you disagree that their "sexual rights" aren't being violated by the restriction of their activity. (I do too)
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Old 03-13-2010, 08:47 PM
 
26,680 posts, read 28,624,812 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tvdxer View Post
4. A 16-year-old boy has recently come out of the closet, despite parental opposition to his lifestyle. This year he wants to march in the Southern Comfort Gay Pride Parade. His parents say "no". Is his right of free expression violated, and should the government punish his parents?
Your question is based on a false premise.

Freedom of speech means that the government may not restrict us from speaking our minds. It has nothing to do with a boy's parents giving him permission to do anything. So the answer to your question is "no" - his right to free speech is not being violated, and the government would have no right to punish his parents.
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Old 03-13-2010, 08:58 PM
 
Location: Jonquil City (aka Smyrna) Georgia- by Atlanta
16,259 posts, read 24,716,372 times
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11 year olds are too young to be involved with sex. I do not have problems with 14 year olds looking at porn but they too are young for sex. 16 year olds are legally adults sexual wise in most states. That is the age of consent and they cannot be charged with a crime for having sex at that age. That said, the parent can certainly impose punishments and denial of privileges to a 16 year old who is having sexual relations. My view is that it is much better to take them and get them on birth control and warn them about AIDs, Syphilis and Herpes - all unpleasant things.
As for the 17 year old homosexual, the First Amendment only applies to government interference in the free speech of citizens. It does not apply to parents or even your boss at work. Either of them may tell you that you will not march in a gay parade and are within their rights to do so. The government however cannot tell him not to be in the gay parade.
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Old 03-13-2010, 09:30 PM
 
Location: Duluth, Minnesota, USA
7,641 posts, read 18,086,955 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AnUnidentifiedMale View Post
Your question is based on a false premise.

Freedom of speech means that the government may not restrict us from speaking our minds. It has nothing to do with a boy's parents giving him permission to do anything. So the answer to your question is "no" - his right to free speech is not being violated, and the government would have no right to punish his parents.
Well, not in all logical systems

At least one of the documents I linked to raises the issue of the "growing autonomy" of minors (as they get older) and the greater say they should have in family decisions. Yet most nations - including ours - recognize certain responsibilities parents have for the support of their children. Some European countries are a lot stricter than ours in this matter.

Surely a 16 year old, in many peoples' minds, would have the right to leave his house should his parents put him under house arrest for no reason, causing him to miss school - something he has a right to. In addition, once he got out, in some jurisdictions he might successfully sue his parents and win for neglect or abuse or something along those lines. Now, if we entitled our children with the right to sexual self-expression to such a degree, and the court recognized his autonomy to make choices for himself, such a court might find his parents guilty, perhaps with the condition that they DID something to stop him from going.
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Old 03-13-2010, 09:49 PM
 
2,709 posts, read 1,035,368 times
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Pedophiles have been working hard to sexualize minors for a long time. The sickos have made a lot of progress these past few years.
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Old 03-13-2010, 10:20 PM
 
Location: Portland, Oregon
7,084 posts, read 12,034,407 times
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Why not just keep doing the bible thumper version of sex ed and say nothing unless it will scare the children so much that they are afraid of anything involving relations for the rest of their lives?
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Old 03-13-2010, 11:14 PM
 
Location: Duluth, Minnesota, USA
7,641 posts, read 18,086,955 times
Reputation: 6913
Hmmmm...nice discussion, but has anybody even answered all the questions (for the scenarios) yet?
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Old 03-14-2010, 04:38 PM
 
Location: Jonquil City (aka Smyrna) Georgia- by Atlanta
16,259 posts, read 24,716,372 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tvdxer View Post
Well, not in all logical systems

At least one of the documents I linked to raises the issue of the "growing autonomy" of minors (as they get older) and the greater say they should have in family decisions. Yet most nations - including ours - recognize certain responsibilities parents have for the support of their children. Some European countries are a lot stricter than ours in this matter.

Surely a 16 year old, in many peoples' minds, would have the right to leave his house should his parents put him under house arrest for no reason, causing him to miss school - something he has a right to. In addition, once he got out, in some jurisdictions he might successfully sue his parents and win for neglect or abuse or something along those lines. Now, if we entitled our children with the right to sexual self-expression to such a degree, and the court recognized his autonomy to make choices for himself, such a court might find his parents guilty, perhaps with the condition that they DID something to stop him from going.
The funny thing is- and one of my kids had a classmate that ran away- the police in most states will NOT force a 16 year old to go home nor will they take them into custody if they run away to some other house. This guy ran away and went to live with a friend and his mother. The cops said that there was nothing the law would do about that situation since the unrelated family was allowing the minor to live there. I was shocked when I was told about this.
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