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First of all, I said get a better job or ANOTHER job. Either one brings more money into your household.
Secondly, ANYONE can get a better job. If you can't make ends meet on a crappy service job, then change industries. Or go to school. But the choice should NOT be that someone else should supplement your lifestyle, however extravagant or meager it may be.
And from my own personal experience, the people that I know that complain that they can't get a better job or don't make enough money to live on CHOOSE to spend their time whining and spending their money on crap, expecting other people to fund their "poverty".
And when I say these things, I'm talking about a more normal economy, not the disaster that this administration has created with regards to jobs. Right now there are a LOT of people that would love a better job, and they just aren't there.
Then why do we have unemployed? Does the unemployment rate show the rate of our collective laziness? When unemployment rate goes up from say 5 percent to 10 percent, does that suggest an additional 5 percent of the population became lazier?
If your resume shows constant job changes there is no employer that is going to hire you on a bet. They can see that you are using them as a free education and do not want to train you and then have you leave. Employers are not usually fools. They will throw the gamers to the curb and let them rot.
Since Nixon the Republicans have been studiously disenfranchising the working class with outsourcing and mechanization while the financiers have replaced improved wages with debt. this is all part of a plan to destroy the American working and lower middle class and replacing it with a system of financial feudalism. It is working very well.
It is also destroying the economy because it is killing investment into our productive capacity and that eventually will destroy our military capacity. Even if these Republican policies actually bankrupt the economy the perpetrators wont mind because their money will be in Hong Kong or Rio.
Lets face it, the plutocracy has won the class war very handily.
If your resume shows constant job changes there is no employer that is going to hire you on a bet. They can see that you are using them as a free education and do not want to train you and then have you leave. Employers are not usually fools. They will throw the gamers to the curb and let them rot.
Since Nixon the Republicans have been studiously disenfranchising the working class with outsourcing and mechanization while the financiers have replaced improved wages with debt. this is all part of a plan to destroy the American working and lower middle class and replacing it with a system of financial feudalism. It is working very well.
It is also destroying the economy because it is killing investment into our productive capacity and that eventually will destroy our military capacity. Even if these Republican policies actually bankrupt the economy the perpetrators wont mind because their money will be in Hong Kong or Rio.
Lets face it, the plutocracy has won the class war very handily.
Since Nixon the Republicans have been studiously disenfranchising the working class with outsourcing and mechanization while the financiers have replaced improved wages with debt. this is all part of a plan to destroy the American working and lower middle class and replacing it with a system of financial feudalism. It is working very well.
Republicans? I would agree if you said Wilson. The "legalized" Money Cartel, Central Bank, made all Americans human capital long before Nixon. The "working class", the "businesses", and indeed the "government" itself are all living on the plantation. Those giant "corportations" are nothing more than a cattle chute for the zombie slaves. The government is just a drooling brute that provides all of the "debt" necessary to serve the Rothschilds, Loebs, and Morgans with free slave labor until their counterfeiting operation goes bust.
So if you fear "financial feudalism" realize that the governmnet, whether collectivist or "capitalist", the businesses, and every person who is not one of the chosen people are serfs. The only vassals are those with a private monopoly over the magic green toilet paper.
Their is a common enemy of both collectivists and libertarians...
Secondly, ANYONE can get a better job. If you can't make ends meet on a crappy service job, then change industries. Or go to school.
What arent you getting? If you train 5 doctors, 5 doctor jobs do not appear. It doesnt matter how much "education" you get at your own expense, there is only room for so many people at every level.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ringwise
And when I say these things, I'm talking about a more normal economy, not the disaster that this administration has created with regards to jobs. Right now there are a LOT of people that would love a better job, and they just aren't there.
This doesnt have anything to do with the current economic condition. There is only room for so many people at any given position, in our economy, period. Everyone who wants to be something cant be employed as that. Some one is going to have to occupy the crap jobs the economy demands, and I dont care if they have a doctorate, or are a high school drop out. Nobody wants to flip burgers, or clean toilets, but some one is forced in to doing that.
But to go with your scenario, those doctors would not make next to nothing. That would mean that they live on the streets or go hungry. Instead, I think they would find something else that paid as well. It's what you do - you earn a living to provide for yourself.
No, all the doctors wouldnt find something that paid well. Some of them would be flipping burgers and cleaning toilets, in fact, over half of them would be in jobs paying less then 42k a year. The market wages for jobs, and the demand for certain job functions, will not magically change because every one is a doctor. A whole hell of alot of people will just be underemployed.
The fact is, the collective ability of Americans is not being fully utilized right now. We have far more qualified people walking around then the economy demands. Almost 30% of the US has a bachelors degree right now, and we graduate 100's of thousands more every year, yet we havent made any gains in real median wage in decades. Tell me, do 30% of all jobs actually require a bachelors degree? Or have we simply all tried to "better" ourselves, and simutaneously screwed ourselves?
What is happening you ask?
Good question. Not only is the abundance of graduates driving down the wage for many occupations, but suddenly, jobs that required a high school diploma 15 years ago, now require a bachelors degree. This is despite the job function not changing much if any.
So, what do we do? Take out more student debt of course! We get more degrees and more certifications at our own expense, and the only thing its going to do is drive the bar higher for minimum standards on jobs, and we are still going to have the exact same median real wage.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ringwise
Here's what would happen in society today - this administration would take your scenario, and would CREATE 10 doctor jobs, using govt funds, paying them twice what private sector doctors make, and they would be 25% less efficient than those private sector doctors.
Ok, please do not assume I am a fan of what is going on right now. I am no fan of welfare capitalism, and I actually hate it more then free market capitalism, but less then state run capitalism.
I get the vibe from posters on here that a liveable wage will drive down motivation. I'm not talking about paying low skill jobs like fast food, hotel services etc. 100K per year. I'm just saying they should be paid enough for 40 hours of their time to cover room board and healthcare for themselves and a dependent.
If they want more than a tiny place to live or nice vacations or a car thats not a piece of crap, they can work harder for more. Most people probably will. But so many jobs don't even pay a liveable wage in the first place, and its not like they're more enjoyable than higher up jobs or you don't go home less tired.
Just think if this was done, you could cut back on welfare (for people stuck on minimum wage) you could eliminate the healthcare bill, less big government etc.
Anyone care to give a rational explanation aside from a liberal stereotype for me and a freeloader stereotype for anyone on minimum wage?
The question is..who gets to determine what a liveable wage is
What arent you getting? If you train 5 doctors, 5 doctor jobs do not appear. It doesnt matter how much "education" you get at your own expense, there is only room for so many people at every level.
This doesnt have anything to do with the current economic condition. There is only room for so many people at any given position, in our economy, period. Everyone who wants to be something cant be employed as that. Some one is going to have to occupy the crap jobs the economy demands, and I dont care if they have a doctorate, or are a high school drop out. Nobody wants to flip burgers, or clean toilets, but some one is forced in to doing that.
OK, going along with your fantasy situation - if there aren't 5 doctor jobs, then those 5 people that were trained as doctors were pretty stupid to train for a job that has no openings. Now, there might be some openings because people retire, quit their job, die, or business increases. There since there is only so much room - CHANGE and get another job. Got it?
And you're right - everyone who wants to be something can't be employed as that. It's called "facing reality". I'd REALLY love to earn my keep training dogs. There isnt' that much money at it. I'm VERY good at it, but there just aren't enough openings at the pay I need to survive. In your world, I should do that anyway and expect the govt to pick up the slack. In my world, I face reality and get a job that DOES pay my bills.
And just so we're clear - NOBODY is forced to flip burgers or clean toilets. No guns to anyone's heads. If you FEEL forced, then change something.
I know I will never convince you that sometimes people work at jobs they don't like, at pay they don't feel they're worth. But you will NEVER convince me that those people should get my money to survive.
OK, going along with your fantasy situation - if there aren't 5 doctor jobs, then those 5 people that were trained as doctors were pretty stupid to train for a job that has no openings.
Ok, I think youve finally grabbed the theory that there isnt room for every one in good jobs.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ringwise
Now, there might be some openings because people retire, quit their job, die, or business increases. There since there is only so much room - CHANGE and get another job. Got it?
Change to what? Let me try to put this in simple terms
There are 3 doctors jobs, 1 accountant job, and 3 garbage man jobs. This represents the 49.9 percent of jobs above median wage, the 1 median wage job, and the 49.9 percent below.
If 7 people trained to be a doctor, 3 would get the doctors jobs, and the other FOUR would have to take jobs BELOW the doctor job, in fact, 3 of them would be garbage men. This is despite being qualified to do a great deal more then drive a garbage truck.
Now, if one of those garbage men got another degree, at their own expense, he may bump one of those 3 doctors, however, that bumped doctor is only going to be able to get that open garbage man job.
Do you get it?
Quote:
Originally Posted by ringwise
And you're right - everyone who wants to be something can't be employed as that. It's called "facing reality". I'd REALLY love to earn my keep training dogs. There isnt' that much money at it. I'm VERY good at it, but there just aren't enough openings at the pay I need to survive. In your world, I should do that anyway and expect the govt to pick up the slack. In my world, I face reality and get a job that DOES pay my bills.
1. If you have even paid attention to "my world", I do not believe in welfare at all. Stop insinuating that I advocate some sort of nanny state welfare capitalism.
2. By you getting a job that does pay your bills, somebody ELSE cannot get that job.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ringwise
And just so we're clear - NOBODY is forced to flip burgers or clean toilets. No guns to anyone's heads. If you FEEL forced, then change something.
If they dont want to starve, yeah they are. Welfare and illegal activity, currently keeps a great deal of people out of the low end jobs, but if you erased all of that, do the math.
There are more people that need jobs, then there are jobs. That means someone MUST flip burgers or clean toilets. Period.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ringwise
I know I will never convince you that sometimes people work at jobs they don't like, at pay they don't feel they're worth. But you will NEVER convince me that those people should get my money to survive.
Again, I despise welfare.......My bag is advocating a system that will allow everyone to be a productive member of society, and not require a welfare safety net for the slave class.
Is there anyone out there who isn't brainwashed to believe that they have to get a "job" anymore? All anyone has to do is provide something of value to their fellow man...period. No person has to make himself a tool of someone else's business. If you have something to offer that is valuable to others they will gladly pay you the amount that they value your product or service. What has happened to these zombies?
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