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Old 04-03-2010, 01:00 PM
 
Location: Columbus
4,879 posts, read 3,907,124 times
Reputation: 1447

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Quote:
Originally Posted by saganista View Post
Not so good on the concept of "margins", I see. You want to waste energy at the margins of consumption simply because substantial energy content has been created and invested already. That's a foolish notion.
My point is twofold.

It's my business if I want to waste energy at the margins.

If people were really concerned about energy use they would not be worried about the use of cars, dishwashers etc.....The real energy use is in making them. Not using them. Therefore, we could save the most energy by improving the manufacturing. People are looking in the wrong place.

Mostly it's because it aint no one's business how much energy I use. As long as I pay the bill.
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Old 04-03-2010, 01:03 PM
 
Location: Columbus
4,879 posts, read 3,907,124 times
Reputation: 1447
Quote:
Originally Posted by saganista View Post
Yeah, after everything he did crashed and burned, it's hard to find all those folks who elected him. And then re-elected him. The Bush flockers seem to have dispersed to a considerable degree...each taking his own tale of denial with him...

Can't speak for them. I never voted for him.

Actually, Obama people amaze me more. The government ruined the country the last 8 years.

But now the government is going to fix it. LOLs.
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Old 04-03-2010, 01:06 PM
 
Location: Columbus
4,879 posts, read 3,907,124 times
Reputation: 1447
Quote:
Originally Posted by plannine View Post
Sorry, if it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck and looks like a duck, guess what........Bush is a conservative, yesterday, today and tomorrow.

"During the Bush years, the conservative movement had as free a hand as it could have hoped for in setting the agenda.

Everyone on the right backed his tax cuts, corporate giveaways, and military and security expenditures, which busted the budget.

The buzzword of "big government" is just a supple rhetorical tools, used inconsistently and opportunistically, for political positioning with no serious intellectual critiques".

(quoted text blindly stolen from David Greenberg of Washington Monthly , but I couldn't of said it any better)
Well, if David Greenberg says so. LOLs.

Conservatives believe in reducing the size of the federal government.

Bush expanded every chance he got. He reduced nothing.

Therefore, Bush is not a conservative. Maybe he aint liberal but he is not a conservative.
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Old 04-03-2010, 01:08 PM
 
19,183 posts, read 28,380,192 times
Reputation: 4002
Quote:
Originally Posted by OhioIstheBest View Post
My point is twofold. It's my business if I want to waste energy at the margins.
No, it isn't. You are overstating your rights and understating your responsibilities.

Quote:
Originally Posted by OhioIstheBest View Post
If people were really concerned about energy use they would not be worried about the use of cars, dishwashers etc.....The real energy use is in making them. Not using them. Therefore, we could save the most energy by improving the manufacturing. People are looking in the wrong place.
Isn't that the capitalist/corporatist's job? Consumers aren't expected to know how a car or dishwasher functions, much less how one is built. They don't have any power or control there in any case. Consumers are much more closely connected to...consumption. That's where they can make a contrbution, and because there are thousands more consumers than there are producers, even seemingly insignifcant changes at the margin on their part can add up to really big numbers.
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Old 04-03-2010, 01:13 PM
 
Location: Columbus
4,879 posts, read 3,907,124 times
Reputation: 1447
Quote:
Originally Posted by saganista View Post
No, it isn't. You are overstating your rights and understating your responsibilities.


Isn't that the capitalist/corporatist's job? Consumers aren't expected to know how a car or dishwasher functions, much less how one is built. They don't have any power or control there in any case. Consumers are much more closely connected to...consumption. That's where they can make a contrbution, and because there are thousands more consumers than there are producers, even seemingly insignifcant changes at the margin on their part can add up to really big numbers.

The only responsibilities I have to society is not to harm others or steal from them. I am under ZERO obligation to be energy efficient. Neither is anyone else.

I wasn't really referring to consumers. I was thinking more of the environmental groups. They always seemed to be worried about the wrong things.
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Old 04-03-2010, 01:14 PM
 
19,183 posts, read 28,380,192 times
Reputation: 4002
Quote:
Originally Posted by OhioIstheBest View Post
Can't speak for them. I never voted for him.
Didn't vote at all, huh...

Quote:
Originally Posted by OhioIstheBest View Post
Actually, Obama people amaze me more. The government ruined the country the last 8 years. But now the government is going to fix it. LOLs.
Read more books. Or maybe just consider guns. Perhaps you realize that guns can be used properly or improperly, depending on whose hands they happen to be in. There's a lesson there for you somewhere...
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Old 04-03-2010, 01:25 PM
 
19,183 posts, read 28,380,192 times
Reputation: 4002
Quote:
Originally Posted by OhioIstheBest View Post
The only responsibilities I have to society is not to harm others or steal from them. I am under ZERO obligation to be energy efficient. Neither is anyone else.
That's the beer talking. Your Liberty and Freedom are nowhere near as large as they appear to be when you've been drinking. Meanwhile, you have a much larger responsibility to society than what you appear to recognize. Failure to pay your dues may be grounds for disqualification.

Quote:
Originally Posted by OhioIstheBest View Post
I wasn't really referring to consumers. I was thinking more of the environmental groups. They always seemed to be worried about the wrong things.
Well, I'll tell you what. Let's slap about another four or five dollars worth of federal excise tax onto the pump price of each gallon of gasoline. Push that price up into the $7 to $8 range. Then let's use a cap-and-trade system to increase electricity rates by a factor of three. We can do things like that. Do you think corporations would start to focus as you'd like them to as their demand plummeted while costs skyrocketed?
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Old 04-03-2010, 01:37 PM
 
1,281 posts, read 1,061,767 times
Reputation: 836
Quote:
Originally Posted by OhioIstheBest View Post
If you have ever been in an automobile factory you will see the energy is used in making said vehicle. Not in driving them.

You gotta drive a car for 10 years before you use as much gas as you do in making the thing. So the SUV argument is not relevant.

Instead of tax breaks why not just give tax cuts?

If we just started eliminating taxes then people would have more money. If they decided to use that money to weatherize their home then so be it. If they wanna use that money to buy booze then so be it.

It's really not mine, yours or the governments business how much energy I want to use. Or what kind. That's why we won't do it. Too many people in this country want to control what everyone else is doing. And they use the govt to do it.

And think of how much energy is used to build a home. All those parts and products shipped in from all over the world. Literally thousands of them for every home in America. All those workers and all those tools (which take a lot of energy to make also) they use.

And people worry if I my dishwasher is "energy efficient" Nonsense.
Energy is used in producing and driving the vehicles. It is also the reason the United States has exported the largest amount of wealth in history to the Middle East and other oil producing countries. You better do some thinking about the way you use energy if you want this country to be sustainable. I don't care what yo are doing, but I do know that we will have a problem with energy if we don't take care of it. Sure energy is plentiful now, but most of it is NON-RENEWABLE. You use it you lose it, so the concern is to be efficient NOW, not when you decide to react to energy prices and shortages. So lets stop being increasingly dependant on foreign sources of energy and attack energy costs here at home. I am not arguing how to go about this, I am arguing the necessity of it being implemented. ENERGY EFFICIENCY... Get Used to it.
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Old 04-03-2010, 03:27 PM
 
69,372 posts, read 55,497,483 times
Reputation: 9363
Quote:
Originally Posted by saganista View Post
That's the beer talking. Your Liberty and Freedom are nowhere near as large as they appear to be when you've been drinking. Meanwhile, you have a much larger responsibility to society than what you appear to recognize.
No he doesnt.. Where does this pretend "responsibility" come from?
Quote:
Originally Posted by saganista View Post
Well, I'll tell you what. Let's slap about another four or five dollars worth of federal excise tax onto the pump price of each gallon of gasoline. Push that price up into the $7 to $8 range. Then let's use a cap-and-trade system to increase electricity rates by a factor of three. We can do things like that. Do you think corporations would start to focus as you'd like them to as their demand plummeted while costs skyrocketed?
A prime example as to how individuals like you celebrate the ruining of economic development. The sad part, you arent joking.. I guess businesses can continue to just avoid your supported policies and continue to build in China.. After all, you got your job, why worry about everone yes right? And you sit here and talk about being responsible.. Please!!
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