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True for a lot of situations. However, internalized oppression and internalized homophobia are issues too. Psychologists, psychiatrists, professionals, and social workers are all to eager to take advantage of that. Think of all the ways they can exploit it for gain and money.
And I agree the mental health profession is largely inept and ineffective.
People look to leadership and experts for comfort and for meaningful solutions to problems bigger than themselves. Cops, politicians, doctors- there's a certain amount of authority they're vested to serve this social function. Folks are quick to jump up that authority can be abused, but the people themselves can also abuse the relationship expecting a mere mortal ought to be saviour for them. Hitler would be just another mental patient screaming on a soap box if he failed to find the way to exploit the needs and irrational expectations of desperate people. This happens on small scales as well as large. No one is immune.
I think by and large the professions have kept themselves humbled in a balanced way. Cops are dictated that their job is to serve and protect, and civilian complaint review boards are a check and balance. Psychology 101 announces on page 1 that it IS a soft science, and professional journals do rarely speak in terms of absolutes. DSM is written in a way that isn't definitive, but relies upon a preponderance of symptoms to make assessments. I don't see a way to correct ineffectiveness if your expectation of definitive answer needs to be as clear as a blood test to determine if you're diabetic or not. These professions are limited by lack of diagnostic science tools- self reports and clinical observations are their biggest tool. The only way to raise the bar and deliver better results is to improve the tools. This isn't just a gay plight, it affects all equally. Even the harder sciences of physical medicine fumble around unmercifully, torturing patients with dozens of misdiagnosis baffled by an unknown phenomena like Lupus or Epstien Barr or Crohns disease. Channeling anger at an institution to make improvements vs debasing the institution (60's generation) is far more productive.
Mental health and sexual orientation interfaces because discomfort is registered on their desks. I wonder if troubled transgender people knocking on the doors of sociologists wouldn't yield better results? How much of being transgender is a chemical imbalance requiring heavy handed physical manipulation? How much of internal unease is within the control of the individual (behavioral)? How much of their angst is cultural relationship? How much of their angst is just a normal phase of being a human being? I think heteros would have a much better understanding if that were parsed out in proper context. Clearly disinformation, the fill in the blank logic exhibited in this thread, isn't helping anyone beyond highlighting the sheer degree of ignorance going on throughout recorded civilization.
You mentioned internalized oppression and glad you did. No one holds that key but you. The path up and out is the same for women, blacks, gays, whatever other minority. Take this advice to heart- do not allow yourself the ego response of divorcing yourself from humanity as separate entity. Whatever issue you can name in your group, it's not so specific to your group that it isn't a human issue. This is a path that perpetuates alienation, and leads to a hole of despair perpetuating itself cyclically.
The function of religion has not served anyone very well in this age, but I see clearly how it's neglected/ abused groups like gays and transgender. There are ordained who have taken a stance, and mean to serve all humanity equally. I think they deserve the support and credit, and I think gays and transgender people would benefit immensely if they've not already committed themselves to atheism or agnosticism. These ordained are not saviours. They are facilitators. When they act otherwise, or if your group demands they be saviours, it will fall into the same trap of the mind main stream religious have fallen.
An alcoholic can be a danger to those around him/her and to the community at large. What 'danger' does the transsexual or transgender person pose to you or the community?
Glad you mentioned this too!
The answer I've heard from conservative side of the aisle seems to boil down to the idea that if gays and transgender people were 'free' the streets would be filled with lewd and lascivious behavior as a new cultural low standard. Children would be trained to be gay, or look upon the existence of gay and transgender as a chinese buffet menu- the US gov't just gave me permission to have sexual relations with anyone, anything, anywhere, anytime. The worst fears are a portrait of complete absence of propriety anywhere in America.
In other words, (and I agree with conservatives to a point), that the more permissive we get socially, the harder it is to raise children to behave by a code of conduct that none other are following. Their peers are becoming increasingly violent, disrespectful, hypersexualized, and the use of sexuality as a tool to manipulate are eroding our civilization. Recreational or casual sex fuels a disrespectful climate. Transgender and gay people are lumped into a larger tide issue they see as threatening to their families and their communities. Conservatives and rural folks are trending away from public schools, their faith in government is diminished even when conservatives are in office. The only sense of 'win' or representation they get is from religious right exploiting their angst.
I am mentally ill myself. I have depression and OCD. If someone called me mentally ill, and I killed myself as a result, wouldn't that show I'm mentally ill? I'm not calling transgendered people anything that I'm not calling myself.
There is a difference between being mentally ill because oppression was put upon you vs the clinical or behavioral causes traditional professions have focused their attention. The fact they've been entirely empty handed to help transgender people should be evidence to support the idea that transgender is likely not related to mental health issues, but rather sociological.
During the victorian era there were high rates of mental illness reported in women. They stuffed them in a closet, hid them in an attic, until the stuffing just exploded. That doesn't mean that in a single century women suddenly went off their rocker lock step. It crossed all borders in western civilization, all socio economic means, all bloodlines. There was a common denominator that was culturally instituted. At the time, the collective civilization had reached an apex that was so oppressive to them as individuals, it manifested itself as if a pandemic were occurring. Despair in human beings reliably goes in two directions- outward rage or internalized self destructive behavior. When the despair is imposed externally by civilization, Freud can't help them, and neither can modern chemistry.
I cannot help but wonder if we're seeing similar trends with ADD going on in children. Medicate them to a stupor, ignore the root reasons. Not good.
Sorry, but your analogy is REALLY bad. What you bring up is impossible, and not what happens with gender confused people.
You know this how? You aren't transgender, and you mean to define them according to your version of your own experiences. You can't speak for them, you're as unqualified as I am to speak for them. See?
I'm not a man, I can't speak for men beyond observations or what they communicate to me. You're interpreting the world based on a set of eyeglasses that are all about what you are, not what other people actually are. The fact they've had to hide themselves for centuries has fed into mythology we're still living out. Let them speak for themselves.
Quote:
Originally Posted by betamanlet
They are born one sex, and wish to be the other sex. That is not the same as a brain transplant which is impossible anyways and completely different.
Logic would dictate if my country hated women, I would not willfully wish to be born a woman. Correct? Our country (and civilization at large for centuries) had gone very far out of it's way to admonish, rebuke, torture, beat, and murder what it has considered to be an abomination to god and a grave threat to social order. Still gays & transgender continue to be born in the world everywhere, which few will attribute to gods credit for that reliable event.
Pure logic, no one would ever willfully wish to be what civilization has vilified and instituted against for centuries. Transgendering happens in both directions, so that rules out American culture putting a hate on one gender or another. There's more to this subject and if you really mean to understand it you'll have to be more willing to listen and less willing to draw immediate conclusions. Let the truth prevail. When we look truth in the eye, we're strong.
When there is a power imbalance, a system of unchecked logic, and a lack of information then it is extremely easy for the psychologist, teacher, priest, etc. to take advantage of the person. I've seen that circumstance happen again and again and again. If I dared correct or show information that contradicted a psychologist or teacher I would be scolded or ignored. I've had that experience in real life. Dictator-esque people aren't powerful and controlling of masses or individuals because they just want to be someone's savior. There are plenty of other variables involved....usually fear of punishment, exiling, positive reinforcement for group-think etc. It drives the victims into that mode of living and being. It's behavior modification.
What ever garbage you quoted about psychology being a soft science is meaningless. Very few judges, teachers, professors, probation officers, mental health "experts" etc. take it as a soft science. If the client disagrees, conflicts, or disobeys the therapist, psychiatrist, or psychologist then he or she is deemed wrong, bad, mentally deranged, combative, ill, diseased, schizophrenic,etc. Mental illness is often used as a weapon to humiliate and subjugate people. Why? So that the illness lingers and persists. When the so-called illness persists they are deemed to need "permanent treatment"...and that means more money for the mental health professionals. Another problem is the complete lack of empathy and arrogance that mental health professionals have for their clients. They have thinly veiled contempt for their clients. How do I know this? I minored in counseling. I heard all the griping and whining stories of how their clients didn't live up to standard. Minoring in it made me hate the mental health profession. It is a disgrace to man-kind.
And I've always been compassionate to every single minority group and have found ways to bond and connect with them. I might not be black or a female but I have compassion for them and I can relate to them in many ways. This is what connects me to the human race. Empathy and compassion are values that a lot of people have dismissed as useless.
And the gay community has every right to be atheist. The Bible literally condemns homosexuals and orders that they be put to death. No gay is safe in most any church. There will always be groups of people, especially in churches that believe in the garbage that is written in The Bible is literal.
Penn and Teller did a great documentary on The Bible:
People look to leadership and experts for comfort and for meaningful solutions to problems bigger than themselves. Cops, politicians, doctors- there's a certain amount of authority they're vested to serve this social function. Folks are quick to jump up that authority can be abused, but the people themselves can also abuse the relationship expecting a mere mortal ought to be saviour for them. Hitler would be just another mental patient screaming on a soap box if he failed to find the way to exploit the needs and irrational expectations of desperate people. This happens on small scales as well as large. No one is immune.
I think by and large the professions have kept themselves humbled in a balanced way. Cops are dictated that their job is to serve and protect, and civilian complaint review boards are a check and balance. Psychology 101 announces on page 1 that it IS a soft science, and professional journals do rarely speak in terms of absolutes. DSM is written in a way that isn't definitive, but relies upon a preponderance of symptoms to make assessments. I don't see a way to correct ineffectiveness if your expectation of definitive answer needs to be as clear as a blood test to determine if you're diabetic or not. These professions are limited by lack of diagnostic science tools- self reports and clinical observations are their biggest tool. The only way to raise the bar and deliver better results is to improve the tools. This isn't just a gay plight, it affects all equally. Even the harder sciences of physical medicine fumble around unmercifully, torturing patients with dozens of misdiagnosis baffled by an unknown phenomena like Lupus or Epstien Barr or Crohns disease. Channeling anger at an institution to make improvements vs debasing the institution (60's generation) is far more productive.
Mental health and sexual orientation interfaces because discomfort is registered on their desks. I wonder if troubled transgender people knocking on the doors of sociologists wouldn't yield better results? How much of being transgender is a chemical imbalance requiring heavy handed physical manipulation? How much of internal unease is within the control of the individual (behavioral)? How much of their angst is cultural relationship? How much of their angst is just a normal phase of being a human being? I think heteros would have a much better understanding if that were parsed out in proper context. Clearly disinformation, the fill in the blank logic exhibited in this thread, isn't helping anyone beyond highlighting the sheer degree of ignorance going on throughout recorded civilization.
You mentioned internalized oppression and glad you did. No one holds that key but you. The path up and out is the same for women, blacks, gays, whatever other minority. Take this advice to heart- do not allow yourself the ego response of divorcing yourself from humanity as separate entity. Whatever issue you can name in your group, it's not so specific to your group that it isn't a human issue. This is a path that perpetuates alienation, and leads to a hole of despair perpetuating itself cyclically.
The function of religion has not served anyone very well in this age, but I see clearly how it's neglected/ abused groups like gays and transgender. There are ordained who have taken a stance, and mean to serve all humanity equally. I think they deserve the support and credit, and I think gays and transgender people would benefit immensely if they've not already committed themselves to atheism or agnosticism. These ordained are not saviours. They are facilitators. When they act otherwise, or if your group demands they be saviours, it will fall into the same trap of the mind main stream religious have fallen.
You know this how? You aren't transgender, and you mean to define them according to your version of your own experiences. You can't speak for them, you're as unqualified as I am to speak for them. See?
I'm not a man, I can't speak for men beyond observations or what they communicate to me. You're interpreting the world based on a set of eyeglasses that are all about what you are, not what other people actually are. The fact they've had to hide themselves for centuries has fed into mythology we're still living out. Let them speak for themselves.
Logic would dictate if my country hated women, I would not willfully wish to be born a woman. Correct? Our country (and civilization at large for centuries) had gone very far out of it's way to admonish, rebuke, torture, beat, and murder what it has considered to be an abomination to god and a grave threat to social order. Still gays & transgender continue to be born in the world everywhere, which few will attribute to gods credit for that reliable event.
Pure logic, no one would ever willfully wish to be what civilization has vilified and instituted against for centuries. Transgendering happens in both directions, so that rules out American culture putting a hate on one gender or another. There's more to this subject and if you really mean to understand it you'll have to be more willing to listen and less willing to draw immediate conclusions. Let the truth prevail. When we look truth in the eye, we're strong.
Okay, so if you start talking about impossible thinks like brain transplants, can I start talking about warp drive and other fictional things? Let's keep the discussion based in REALITY
okay, so if you start talking about impossible thinks like brain transplants, can i start talking about warp drive and other fictional things? Let's keep the discussion based in reality
Quote:
Originally Posted by betamanlet
if i thought i should be a dolphin, and had surgery to give me a fin, and a bottle nose,w ould you think i'm mentally ill? I'm a human, not a dolphin.
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