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Old 05-20-2014, 10:28 PM
 
3,567 posts, read 2,376,653 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TuborgP View Post
That would be the group that has 80% of the wealth but only pays 50% of the taxes.

 
Old 05-20-2014, 11:11 PM
 
24,503 posts, read 35,475,857 times
Reputation: 12835
Quote:
Originally Posted by kwhitegocubs View Post
Utter bunk and you know it.
That is solely your opinion.
Quote:
Originally Posted by kwhitegocubs View Post
We work longer hours than almost any industrialized nation, and still have the highest per-hour productivity rate of any nation in the developed world, excepting Norway. It's disgusting that we drive ourselves, like Jurgis Rudkus, to always "work harder", when the benefits of all that hard work accrue to a tiny portion of the population.
We only do it because we want to. It's what we choose to do. The rewards are great.

It is clear by your previous post that you aren't a fan of hard work. That's perfectly fine. But those who work hard will reap the benefits of doing so.
Quote:
Originally Posted by kwhitegocubs View Post

It's equally disgusting that hard work is seen as an end in and of itself. Go back to the 1950s and 1960s; economists across the board saw our increasing wealth as containing the possibility of ending overwrought toil. We could finally share in the benefits of an industrialized society and have more time to pursue our interests! Well, we have the wealth, but not the benefits, and our gross and needless inequality is to blame.
We have all the benefits. What other nation has it so easy for families to come from a poor background, send their kids to public schools, spend time educating them at home, just so they can get into a decent college (harvard, yale, jhu, nyu, etc.) so they can have better lives?
 
Old 05-20-2014, 11:12 PM
 
460 posts, read 409,003 times
Reputation: 1111
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marc Paolella View Post
And yes, we do live in a just world. There is some luck, good and bad, but it's minor. Probability shows us that in general, if you really work hard and make yourself valuable to others, the overwhelming odds are that you will move up and be well paid and well respected.
Where is this probability you speak of? I'm quite genuinely laughing. I remember encountering you in a previous thread and debating whether or not you were serious. I must assume you are not. It's not anecdotes about pediatric cancer, but the fact that accounting for a few unearned variables (parental education and income primarily) predicts the vast majority of one's future success. Intergenerational mobility is relatively low in the U.S. Indeed, the nation you are born into is also unearned, and has (of course) an even larger impact in the broadest scheme of things.

It's also rather plainly begging the question to insinuate that work ethic, knowledge, and skill is somehow a baseline assumption. Those things are entirely unearned and entirely learned. As are genetics, of course, which play a substantial role in how we respond to stimuli, learning, or even our our capacity to learn certain skills.

I also find it very bizarre that you'd compare humans to deer and other "dumb animals". It is our ability to outsource work to machines and build a society that allows us to escape endless toil! That's the very point.
 
Old 05-20-2014, 11:31 PM
 
Location: California & Texas
157 posts, read 300,807 times
Reputation: 100
Quote:
Originally Posted by NJBest View Post
That is solely your opinion.

We only do it because we want to. It's what we choose to do. The rewards are great.

It is clear by your previous post that you aren't a fan of hard work. That's perfectly fine. But those who work hard will reap the benefits of doing so.


We have all the benefits. What other nation has it so easy for families to come from a poor background, send their kids to public schools, spend time educating them at home, just so they can get into a decent college (harvard, yale, jhu, nyu, etc.) so they can have better lives?
Absolutely! I don't think people here realize how easy they have it. You go to school, you work hard, you get into a top university (or get into a top trade program), and reap the benefits of your hard work.

However, most just don't care for hard work early on. They rather get Bs in school, go to a mediocre state university with 40+ student classes, and build up so much knowledge debt that it's near impossible to get the point where you can enjoy the fruit.
 
Old 05-21-2014, 05:46 AM
 
Location: Northern NJ
7,954 posts, read 7,927,297 times
Reputation: 11183
Quote:
Originally Posted by kwhitegocubs View Post
Where is this probability you speak of? I'm quite genuinely laughing. I remember encountering you in a previous thread and debating whether or not you were serious. I must assume you are not. It's not anecdotes about pediatric cancer, but the fact that accounting for a few unearned variables (parental education and income primarily) predicts the vast majority of one's future success. Intergenerational mobility is relatively low in the U.S. Indeed, the nation you are born into is also unearned, and has (of course) an even larger impact in the broadest scheme of things.

It's also rather plainly begging the question to insinuate that work ethic, knowledge, and skill is somehow a baseline assumption. Those things are entirely unearned and entirely learned. As are genetics, of course, which play a substantial role in how we respond to stimuli, learning, or even our our capacity to learn certain skills.

I also find it very bizarre that you'd compare humans to deer and other "dumb animals". It is our ability to outsource work to machines and build a society that allows us to escape endless toil! That's the very point.
The probability is on every major highway this morning as the nation goes to work. Opportunity is everywhere, with every person you meet. The key is to stop thinking in terms of groups, collectives, generations, races, victimism, etc. There are no groups. There are no races. Only you, the time you have, and the decision on how to spend it.

I literally can't wait to get to work each day, and I'm a nobody. Something as simple as selling and appraising homes is super fun and believe it or not, super creative. So is plumbing. So is landscaping. So is house cleaning.

The point of machines is not avoiding work, it is elevating the type of work. Improving quality of time spent on the planet. The common schlub does not have to grow his own food, a horribly low level and mundane task. So now he can pursue other higher endeavors.

And that's the beauty of Capitalism. Inventions and advances displace people and render them worthless. Forcing them to elevate themselves in order to keep up. Under Capitalism, getting better is inevitable, even for the dregs of society.

Level playing fields will be experienced when we are dead. Life is about inequality and competition and dreaming and working and changing.
 
Old 05-21-2014, 06:29 AM
 
3,567 posts, read 2,376,653 times
Reputation: 2729
Quote:
Originally Posted by NJBest View Post
We have all the benefits. What other nation has it so easy for families to come from a poor background, send their kids to public schools, spend time educating them at home, just so they can get into a decent college (harvard, yale, jhu, nyu, etc.) so they can have better lives?
Basically every other first world country does this far better than we do.
Quote:
Originally Posted by UnemployedandLovingIt View Post
Absolutely! I don't think people here realize how easy they have it. You go to school, you work hard, you get into a top university (or get into a top trade program), and reap the benefits of your hard work.

However, most just don't care for hard work early on. They rather get Bs in school, go to a mediocre state university with 40+ student classes, and build up so much knowledge debt that it's near impossible to get the point where you can enjoy the fruit.
Most people are more worried about avoiding their crackhead uncle and local gangs, or whether they'll get a full dinner that night, than they are about their math homework. And who can blame them?

(Answer: self-righteous internet libertarians)

Besides, it's literally impossible for everyone to get into a top university. That's like the musical chairs logical fallacy, where instead of putting out enough chairs for everyone you say "anyone can sit if they just run fast enough!" without regard to the fact that even if the slowest person is running a 4 minute mile pace they still can't sit down. And conservatives will blame the victim for not running fast enough.
 
Old 05-21-2014, 06:50 AM
 
29,815 posts, read 34,900,894 times
Reputation: 11735
Quote:
Originally Posted by FrankMiller View Post
That would be the group that has 80% of the wealth but only pays 50% of the taxes.
And those who pay no INCOME taxes have what share?
 
Old 05-21-2014, 06:54 AM
 
29,815 posts, read 34,900,894 times
Reputation: 11735
Quote:
Originally Posted by NJBest View Post
That is solely your opinion.

We only do it because we want to. It's what we choose to do. The rewards are great.

It is clear by your previous post that you aren't a fan of hard work. That's perfectly fine. But those who work hard will reap the benefits of doing so.


We have all the benefits. What other nation has it so easy for families to come from a poor background, send their kids to public schools, spend time educating them at home, just so they can get into a decent college (harvard, yale, jhu, nyu, etc.) so they can have better lives?
Go to any suburban school district that has affluence and subsidized housing and compare performance across INCOME groups. The path is there and some work at it more than others.
 
Old 05-21-2014, 08:01 AM
 
Location: Northern NJ
7,954 posts, read 7,927,297 times
Reputation: 11183
Quote:
Originally Posted by FrankMiller View Post
Basically every other first world country does this far better than we do.

Most people are more worried about avoiding their crackhead uncle and local gangs, or whether they'll get a full dinner that night, than they are about their math homework. And who can blame them?

(Answer: self-righteous internet libertarians)

Besides, it's literally impossible for everyone to get into a top university. That's like the musical chairs logical fallacy, where instead of putting out enough chairs for everyone you say "anyone can sit if they just run fast enough!" without regard to the fact that even if the slowest person is running a 4 minute mile pace they still can't sit down. And conservatives will blame the victim for not running fast enough.
University, unischmersity. Some people go. Some people don't. It doesn't matter. Happiness and productivity are available to all. On their own steam. But they have to make the individual decision not to listen to the 2-bit loser collectivists that spout the hackneyed deterministic unjust world über-nonsense.
 
Old 05-21-2014, 08:14 AM
 
3,567 posts, read 2,376,653 times
Reputation: 2729
Quote:
Originally Posted by TuborgP View Post
And those who pay no INCOME taxes have what share?
Approximately zero.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marc Paolella View Post
University, unischmersity. Some people go. Some people don't. It doesn't matter. Happiness and productivity are available to all. On their own steam. But they have to make the individual decision not to listen to the 2-bit loser collectivists that spout the hackneyed deterministic unjust world über-nonsense.
"Available to anyone" isn't the same as "available to everyone", even if we accept the ridiculous premise that everyone has remotely equal opportunities in America (and surely the fact that parent's wealth statistically determines your own wealth is just a crazy coincidence and not an indicator of social immobility).
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