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Old 05-29-2014, 02:50 PM
 
7,846 posts, read 5,268,296 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GoCUBS1 View Post
You don't think heavy estate taxes would disincentivize keeping money in family illiquid assets, stocks, real estate, etc? Often the capital is used to invest/grow family business (jobs), maintain properties, and earmarked for non-profits/philanthropy, etc. - things that are very beneficial for society. Not all the billionaires are blowing it on yachts. I doubt the state will more efficiently use this capital to fund things like education and road construction. The $ taken in tax to fund these projects goes into massive overhead, mismanagement, and back into the wallets of the big contractors...
Considering the fact that who the estate tax actually hits are far more likely to stash their money in overseas shelters, I would disagree with that sentiment.

This country is obsessed with obstructing normal government function. It doesn't matter how efficient or inefficient a government will build roads. The concept is simple; it is better to invest in citizens rather than off-shore havens or bank vaults. We can tackle the efficiency as we go along.. we need to get our damn priorites straight first.

 
Old 05-29-2014, 03:07 PM
 
Location: Chicagoland
5,649 posts, read 8,630,141 times
Reputation: 6758
Quote:
Originally Posted by FrankMiller View Post
How can you say that self-determinism is alive and well, and then encourage the role of capital in family businesses, in the same post?

Self-determination is the idea of a positive freedom, a freedom for actions that we originate, and that actions are "up to us." Such acts constitute the essence of free will.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-de...on_(philosophy)


They are not mutually exclusive. The "stinking rich" who inherit money have the freedom to grow it or squander it in one generation - self determinism. I've seen both - corporations run into the ground by heirs and bankrupt family businesses turned into goldmines. And plenty of lean start-ups usurp family giants due to less overhead, innovation, adaptability, drive - self determinism... The "stinking rich" also fund these start-ups. I have no right to demand a piece of someone else's rightful family inheritance - it is disturbing that others' think they should have this right.
 
Old 05-29-2014, 03:24 PM
 
Location: Chicagoland
5,649 posts, read 8,630,141 times
Reputation: 6758
Quote:
Originally Posted by Opin_Yunated View Post
Considering the fact that who the estate tax actually hits are far more likely to stash their money in overseas shelters, I would disagree with that sentiment.

This country is obsessed with obstructing normal government function. It doesn't matter how efficient or inefficient a government will build roads. The concept is simple; it is better to invest in citizens rather than off-shore havens or bank vaults. We can tackle the efficiency as we go along.. we need to get our damn priorites straight first.
Stashing in overseas shelters is often a reaction to overtaxation. Taking from "the stinking rich" to give to a corrupt, inefficient govt. to line the pockets of politicians, payola players, and big, often foreign contractors is not "investing in citizens," but it is "normal government function." This country is obsessed with the sheer waste and corruption of "normal government function." Keeping the money in a family business that has employed generations of locals, buys from other local business, improves the local economy, contributes to local philanthropy, etc. is very often a much better investment in citizens.
 
Old 05-29-2014, 03:36 PM
 
3,566 posts, read 2,355,720 times
Reputation: 2729
Quote:
Originally Posted by GoCUBS1 View Post
Self-determination is the idea of a positive freedom, a freedom for actions that we originate, and that actions are "up to us." Such acts constitute the essence of free will.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-de...on_(philosophy)


They are not mutually exclusive. The "stinking rich" who inherit money have the freedom to grow it or squander it in one generation - self determinism. I've seen both - corporations run into the ground by heirs and bankrupt family businesses turned into goldmines. And plenty of lean start-ups usurp family giants due to less overhead, innovation, adaptability, drive - self determinism... The "stinking rich" also fund these start-ups. I have no right to demand a piece of someone else's rightful family inheritance - it is disturbing that others' think they should have this right.
You've illustrated that the stinking rich have the benefit of self-determinism, but not anybody else. What about the kids who are born in the slums with no inheritance and die of gunshots before they turn five? Why do only the wealthy have a right to self-determination?
Quote:
Originally Posted by GoCUBS1 View Post
Stashing in overseas shelters is often a reaction to overtaxation.
"Overtaxation" in the opinion of the wealthy, which is to say "any taxation".
 
Old 05-29-2014, 03:44 PM
 
Location: USA
7,778 posts, read 10,096,619 times
Reputation: 11698
Quote:
Originally Posted by FrankMiller View Post
I think the amazing thing is that Libertarians always think they're John Galt, and not Eddie Willers (the hardworking and loyal employee who is left to die because he's not an ubermensch).

<snipped>
You have no idea what Libertarians ALWAYS think. When you make these broad generalizations it causes all the other things you say to be questionable.
 
Old 05-29-2014, 04:05 PM
 
3,566 posts, read 2,355,720 times
Reputation: 2729
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rubi3 View Post
You have no idea what Libertarians ALWAYS think. When you make these broad generalizations it causes all the other things you say to be questionable.
Well, the idea that somebody reads Atlas Shrugged, identifies with the guy who is carelessly left to die and thinks "yes, this is my utopia!"... is sort of terrifying.
 
Old 05-29-2014, 04:09 PM
 
Location: Northern NJ
7,947 posts, read 7,876,468 times
Reputation: 11164
Quote:
Originally Posted by FrankMiller View Post
Well, the idea that somebody reads Atlas Shrugged, identifies with the guy who is carelessly left to die and thinks "yes, this is my utopia!"... is sort of terrifying.
What is terrifying is people who think that need is a claim and that they have a right to use force to take things that belong to others because they need them.
 
Old 05-29-2014, 04:13 PM
 
Location: Northern NJ
7,947 posts, read 7,876,468 times
Reputation: 11164
Quote:
Originally Posted by Opin_Yunated View Post
Considering the fact that who the estate tax actually hits are far more likely to stash their money in overseas shelters, I would disagree with that sentiment.

This country is obsessed with obstructing normal government function. It doesn't matter how efficient or inefficient a government will build roads. The concept is simple; it is better to invest in citizens rather than off-shore havens or bank vaults. We can tackle the efficiency as we go along.. we need to get our damn priorites straight first.
I love the putrescent cliches: "Investing in citizens". Meaning thievery and pillaging and redistributing what is earned by, and belongs to, those who earn it - is now referred to as "investing".
 
Old 05-29-2014, 04:21 PM
 
Location: Chicagoland
5,649 posts, read 8,630,141 times
Reputation: 6758
Quote:
Originally Posted by FrankMiller View Post
You've illustrated that the stinking rich have the benefit of self-determinism, but not anybody else. What about the kids who are born in the slums with no inheritance and die of gunshots before they turn five? Why do only the wealthy have a right to self-determination?
You are illogically trying to appeal to emotion. Do you really think taking from family inheritance will solve the problems of gun violence in the slums? Really?

Everyone has the potential benefit of self-determinism - otherwise we wouldn't have the "crack slums to success" self-deterministic examples like Jay-Z, now would we? And I don't find him an anomaly - I know many of the self-made from the slums of big cities and the south. Upward mobility from poverty is not as uncommon as many like to portray - I previously posted an article with statistics on this.

Gun violence is not the fault of those who inherit family money or the business world. It may be linked to poor parenting or poor educational policy or poor mental health systems - but it is the fault of the criminal - self-determinism.

IMO we need to improve educational opportunities - and it's been repeatedly shown that throwing money at schools does not solve these problems. We need complete public school overhaul - more virtual classes, earlier trade specialization, mentor/apprenticeships, public boarding schools, youth business start-up/incubation, school choice freedom/vouchers, year-round schooling for some, more equitable funding base (why are you not as outraged about the inequity of educational opportunity as you are on the inequity of wealth/inheritance?).

You think taking more money from the wealthy estates will enable the govt. to fix all these problems? Yeah, right... they've done such a great job so far.

Last edited by GoCUBS1; 05-29-2014 at 04:38 PM..
 
Old 05-29-2014, 04:45 PM
 
3,566 posts, read 2,355,720 times
Reputation: 2729
Statistics show that your parents' wealth is the single biggest factor in determining your own wealth. That's not self-determination.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marc Paolella View Post
I love the putrescent cliches: "Investing in citizens". Meaning thievery and pillaging and redistributing what is earned by, and belongs to, those who earn it - is now referred to as "investing".
You haven't demonstrated that the wealthy have earned anything. It's the rich who are doing the thieving and pillaging and redistributing (but they call it rent-seeking).
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