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Old 04-16-2010, 01:23 PM
 
Location: North America
19,634 posts, read 12,433,898 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ♠atizar♠ View Post
Maybe some of them fear that one day, their religion won't have more influence than others.

Religion is a personal choice. Too bad politics entered the church.
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Old 04-16-2010, 01:26 PM
 
Location: 15 months till retirement and I can leave the hell hole of New Yakistan
25,292 posts, read 14,031,433 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by carterstamp View Post
Religion is a personal choice. Too bad politics entered the church.
politics is a religion of sorts

liberalISM
conservatISM
athiSM
catholISM

all the ISM's is/are a religion/BELIEF of some sorts
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Old 04-16-2010, 01:27 PM
 
6,899 posts, read 6,579,570 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chielgirl View Post
How so?
All it says is that special consideration cannot be provided for those who pray.
It says nothing about your right to pray as you currently do, if you do.
Where is it disallowing you the privilege of praying?

It's just not making you special.

So why have a day to recognize Christmas or Easter. What about 4th of July, Memorial Day. The bottom line is, there are already days put aside on the calendar.
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Old 04-16-2010, 01:30 PM
 
13,072 posts, read 11,422,221 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by carterstamp View Post
Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between man & his god, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legitimate powers of government reach actions only, and not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof, thus building a wall of separation between church and state.

Is it a law? Is MLK day a law a required day to respect him? Are any holidays recognized by the government such? Do they dictate? What penalties do they apply for non-compliance?

Can you explain such to me please?

Because if recognizing a prayer day is a dictation, the recognizing any other day is also a dictation and unconstitutional in its effort.

Please argue your point.

Last edited by Nomander; 04-16-2010 at 01:40 PM..
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Old 04-16-2010, 01:31 PM
 
16,272 posts, read 9,107,040 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by carterstamp View Post
Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between man & his god, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legitimate powers of government reach actions only, and not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof, thus building a wall of separation between church and state.

This is to what I refer. This is the wall of separation. Prayer is an expression of religion, whether it is Christian, Muslim, Hindu, Buddhist, etc. By delcaring a NDOP, the government is, in effect making a law respecting the establishment of religion. People can still pray, people can still worship, or not, as they please.

Whether the NDOP will be struck down by the SCOTUS remains to be seen.

And, before anyone asks, or assumes anything, I am a Christian, raised a Southern Baptist, and was dunked back in 1981.
Keep quoting.

Jefferson continues:

"I have refrained from presenting even occasional performances of devotion presented indeed legally where an Executive is the legal head of a national church."

This is the context of what he was saying in your quote. “head of a national church”.

The limitation Jefferson is referring to is the establishment of a national church where government picks one denomination to be preeminent and to receive federal support.

Further, the letter itself is no legal treaties. It is in fact, simply Jefferson’s personal posture toward even legal acts of expressions of faith. Jefferson wrote many letters and taking the Danbury letter and making stand alone sans all of his other writings fails the test of honesty and context.

Further Jefferson was not the only founder. George Washington and John Adams before him were very expressive of religious faith. Which founding father do we then pick? Which letter do we use to make our point? Others point out that if faith fails America fails. Others opine of the power of prayer and the need for collective prayer. As has already been stated, the very first congress paid a minister to pray before they opened the session.
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Old 04-16-2010, 01:32 PM
 
15,254 posts, read 16,821,569 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blackandproud View Post
So why have a day to recognize Christmas or Easter. What about 4th of July, Memorial Day. The bottom line is, there are already days put aside on the calendar.
I'm a Christian and I'd be perfectly happy with doing away with Christmas and Easter as national holidays. It wouldn't affect my ability to worship one bit. And it might make them less repugnantly commercial.

4th of July, Memorial Day, Veterans Day--those are truly national holidays and not religious holidays.
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Old 04-16-2010, 01:34 PM
 
Location: North America
19,634 posts, read 12,433,898 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by workingclasshero View Post
So it was 'baptized' just not as a baby

I just know that the baptists, and their fanatical cousins the 'born-agains' are part of the extreme on the religious scale

I had a bunch of them ask me 'Are you Saaaaved?', when I was stationed in North Carolina

Like I've said, I believe religion is a personal choice, and should not be forced upon people. I have, on occasion spoken of my faith, but usually, it is anecdotal. I don't ask people if they are saved, I just speak about when times are hard, I rely on prayer to give me strength, and it works.

I don't attend church, I was disenchanted with organized religion a long time ago (the moral majority/Falwell era), but I still remain a Christian.

Too many powerful "religious leaders" like to use God as sort of a blank check to get what they want. "Give to my organization and you'll get it back from God sevenfold", and all that. It doesn't work that way, never has. A Good Father sometimes says "No".

Anyway, that's my take on it.
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Old 04-16-2010, 01:38 PM
 
Location: Arizona High Desert
4,639 posts, read 5,096,934 times
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Gad zooks ! Don't these religious NUTBAGS have enough prayer ??? Why a special day ? Absurd. What if the NRA wanted a special day to shoot guns, or the fly fishers wanted a day to fly fish ? What if chefs wanted a special day to cook ?
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Old 04-16-2010, 01:38 PM
 
13,072 posts, read 11,422,221 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marlow View Post
I'm a Christian and I'd be perfectly happy with doing away with Christmas and Easter as national holidays. It wouldn't affect my ability to worship one bit. And it might make them less repugnantly commercial.

4th of July, Memorial Day, Veterans Day--those are truly national holidays and not religious holidays.
My opinion is that it wouldn't matter. The issue is simply not that there is a holiday that has no dictation on the people. It is simple that you are a Christian and everything you stand for is a odds with the forces to which would take rule. As long as you remind them of strict adherence to a principal, you are a threat and no matter how much you relinquish, it will not be acceptable until you are eradicated.

This is the nature of these movements.
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Old 04-16-2010, 01:40 PM
 
Location: North America
19,634 posts, read 12,433,898 times
Reputation: 8282
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ferd View Post
Keep quoting.

Jefferson continues:

"I have refrained from presenting even occasional performances of devotion presented indeed legally where an Executive is the legal head of a national church."

This is the context of what he was saying in your quote. “head of a national church”.

The limitation Jefferson is referring to is the establishment of a national church where government picks one denomination to be preeminent and to receive federal support.

Further, the letter itself is no legal treaties. It is in fact, simply Jefferson’s personal posture toward even legal acts of expressions of faith. Jefferson wrote many letters and taking the Danbury letter and making stand alone sans all of his other writings fails the test of honesty and context.

Further Jefferson was not the only founder. George Washington and John Adams before him were very expressive of religious faith. Which founding father do we then pick? Which letter do we use to make our point? Others point out that if faith fails America fails. Others opine of the power of prayer and the need for collective prayer. As has already been stated, the very first congress paid a minister to pray before they opened the session.

Ferd, the basic problem is this: Although we were founded by Christians, this nation cannot establish religion by law. Nor can it restrict the free exercise by law. It can be said the NDOP violates the establishment clause of the first amendment. Another poster has pointed out that NDOP is not a law. If this is so, then we'll see where the process takes this case. I believe it will go all the way to SCOTUS.

Jefferson got a lot of flak for the letter to the Danbury Baptists. So this issue is not a new one.
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