Presidents Faith Based Initiative

[EinsteinsGhost]

Originally Posted by actonbell

Could be weird logic and if it is that's okay. (in other words, i don't care)
I've only seen the first amendment violated by the supreme court in 1962 & 63, when freedom of expression through prayer was kicked out of the schools.

Other than that I am not alarmed at all.

I came into this thread to see why every one else would be upset. Then I find out, it seems no one likes the churches involvement in the community in collaboration with organizations funded by the government.

I do not see an establishment clause violation that other people tend to see. I also do not see an Obama policy. I see people working together for a common good.

I think you need to not just read, but study the bill of rights. I can tell, you apply it way too much to your whim, and come up with these whimsical points. No, keep the weird logic coming, they help affirm my position, and are telling of the mindset that I choose to debate with.

Here's the first lesson. An individual is fundamental to bill of rights. You don't go out to vote as an individual and then again as a group. Do you? Your incessant whining and crying that students are somehow not being allowed to pray is something the courts (and I) see as forcing everybody to be a part of it. Even if one chooses not to, would you support them being free to play music during the prayer, or would you have them "respect" the prayer service? We are talking about schools here, not Madarsas, I hope.

We do agree on the last part though. Part of the problem is that the groups are detailed as "faith based and community based". A true secular statement would be "community based" organizations, which would already include faith based, of all faiths, non-faith, and nothing to do with faith at all, organizations, the way it should be.

These organizations are often closest to the people who need help the most. As long as preaching for, and against, religions is out of the picture, I'm all for it.

[Ellis Bell]

Originally Posted by EinsteinsGhost

I think you need to not just read, but study the bill of rights. I can tell, you apply it way too much to your whim, and come up with these whimsical points. No, keep the weird logic coming, they help affirm my position, and are telling of the mindset that I choose to debate with.

Here's the first lesson. An individual is fundamental to bill of rights. You don't go out to vote as an individual and then again as a group. Do you? Your incessant whining and crying that students are somehow not being allowed to pray is something the courts (and I) see as forcing everybody to be a part of it. Even if one chooses not to, would you support them being free to play music during the prayer, or would you have them "respect" the prayer service? We are talking about schools here, not Madarsas, I hope.

We do agree on the last part though. Part of the problem is that the groups are detailed as "faith based and community based". A true secular statement would be "community based" organizations, which would already include faith based, of all faiths, non-faith, and nothing to do with faith at all, organizations, the way it should be.

These organizations are often closest to the people who need help the most. As long as preaching for, and against, religions is out of the picture, I'm all for it.

One day some one will re-open that issue and the "respect" will flow both ways, not just 'one-way'. All the Supreme Court did was fix the squeaky wheel. (it is not a whimsical notion to see the one-way street)

I'm not sure that people can have their cake and eat it too. Can people take the 'faith' out of 'faith-based' organizations?

Tolerance one with the other is the only way the wheels can flow evenly and in a forward motion. The only way people can move together in a powerful force, is to learn trust in one another. Without trust, this world comes to a screeching halt.

Nothing will get done and no one will understand why. Faith and trust go hand in hand, you can not have one with out the other.