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Status:
"It Can't Rain All The Time"
(set 29 days ago)
Location: North Pacific
15,754 posts, read 7,593,334 times
Reputation: 2576
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Quote:
Originally Posted by actonbell
Establishing a religion and believing in one is two totally separate things.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Randomstudent
That is absolutely true there were many of the founding fathers did attend Church and believing in a religion and creating a state guided by religious principles are apples and oranges. Thus it is illogical to say with what we know about the 1st amendment that the US government was established based on Christian principles as the Texas textbooks proclaim.
Let's break it down
I - Freedom of Speech, Press, Religion and Petition
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.
Pronunciation: (ri-lij'un), [key]
—n.
1. a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe, esp. when considered as the creation of a superhuman agency or agencies, usually involving devotional and ritual observances, and often containing a moral code governing the conduct of human affairs.
2. a specific fundamental set of beliefs and practices generally agreed upon by a number of persons or sects: the Christian religion; the Buddhist religion.
3. the body of persons adhering to a particular set of beliefs and practices: a world council of religions.
4. the life or state of a monk, nun, etc.: to enter religion.
5. the practice of religious beliefs; ritual observance of faith.
6. something one believes in and follows devotedly; a point or matter of ethics or conscience: to make a religion of fighting prejudice.
7. religions, Archaic.religious rites.
8. Archaic.strict faithfulness; devotion: a religion to one's vow.
9. get religion, Informal.
a. to acquire a deep conviction of the validity of religious beliefs and practices.
b. to resolve to mend one's errant ways: The company got religion and stopped making dangerous products.
es•tab•lish•ment
Pronunciation: (i-stab'lish-munt), [key]
—n.
1. the act or an instance of establishing.
2. the state or fact of being established.
3. something established; a constituted order or system.
4. (often cap.) the existing power structure in society; the dominant groups in society and their customs or institutions; institutional authority (usually prec. by the): The Establishment believes exploring outer space is worth any tax money spent.
5. (often cap.) the dominant group in a field of endeavor, organization, etc. (usually prec. by the): the literary Establishment.
6. a household; place of residence including its furnishings, grounds, etc.
7. a place of business together with its employees, merchandise, equipment, etc.
8. a permanent civil, military, or other force or organization.
9. an institution, as a school, hospital, etc.
10. the recognition by a state of a church as the state church.
11. the church so recognized, esp. the Church of England.
12. Archaic.a fixed or settled income.
Congress shall make no law, regarding an institution (9) as a school, hospital, etc, (5) the practice of religious beliefs; ritual observance of faith. (but congress did, when congress banned school prayer. a school is an establishment)
One of the basic Christian philosophies is that people have a choice. It is the individuals rights to have a choice. (First Amendment)
phi•los•o•phy
Pronunciation: (fi-los'u-fē), [key]
—n.,
—pl. -phies.
1. the rational investigation of the truths and principles of being, knowledge, or conduct.
2. any of the three branches, namely natural philosophy, moral philosophy, and metaphysical philosophy, that are accepted as composing this study.
3. a system of philosophical doctrine: the philosophy of Spinoza.
4. the critical study of the basic principles and concepts of a particular branch of knowledge, esp. with a view to improving or reconstituting them: the philosophy of science.
5. a system of principles for guidance in practical affairs.
6. a philosophical attitude, as one of composure and calm in the presence of troubles or annoyances.
I believe it is safe to say that no other religious philosophical doctrine other than Christianity is a choice given. The first amendment is based on the person's choice.
Quote:
Originally Posted by actonbell
And there is no national congressional church, now is there?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Randomstudent
Where in the constitution does it say anything about a national congressional church. As I said the constitution is broader then that. It does not say congress shall pass no law respecting an establishment of a church. The constitution says "congress shall pass no law respecting an establishment of religion." The term religion is much more encompassing then the term church. Church implies a particular Christian denomination, religion encompasses all of Christianity, Judaism, Buddhism etc. Thus it is a really big stretch to try to reconcile the idea of the government being founded on Christianity and Christian principles with the idea that the legislature...the branch the makes the laws cannot pass a law establishing a particular religion, including Christianity in general. This is especially the case if you read about Christianity in the bible. Just as an example take Matthew 28:19 and try to reconcile that with the 1st amendment.
Mathew 28:19 says to teach to all nations.
Knowledge is power, without knowledge we are without the power to choose for ourselves that which we believe is right. We are not puppets on a string under Christ's teachings, in all things we have a choice. To make the right one for ourselves one must receive the teaching first, without it, they will remain, ignorant of all things. So based on Mathew 28:19, teach them so they will know they have a choice, reconciled with the first amendment, the individual has a choice, which is the Christian way.
Teach all nations---so they will know, they have a choice.
An establishment is also a church. The letter written by Jefferson that every one keeps harping on, the other letter written by Washington, the Treaty of Tripoli 1796-97 (which may I remind people has a problem with the disappearing act with article 11 and the President signed it so as to get military aid pronto, because people were being slaughtered, by Muslim Pirates) does not reconcile with the re-negotiated Treaty of Tripoli 1805-06, in it the article 11 was dropped. (It never appears again)
With the few founding father's government documents one can come up with to point away from Christianity, there are many Avalon Project - The American Constitution - A Documentary Record that point toward Christianity and its philosophical core beliefs in that as a Christian, Christ gave to us a choice, a freedom to be whoever we wanted to be. As so stated in, the First Amendment. (His wish, was for people to choose Him, to love Him, but He knows they have a choice.)
Last edited by Ellis Bell; 05-25-2010 at 02:22 PM..
Reason: added history link to the story behind Treaty of Tripoli
I - Freedom of Speech, Press, Religion and Petition
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof....
Pronunciation: (ri-lij'un), [key]
—n.
1. a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe, esp. when considered as the creation of a superhuman agency or agencies, usually involving devotional and ritual observances, and often containing a moral code governing the conduct of human affairs.
2. a specific fundamental set of beliefs and practices generally agreed upon by a number of persons or sects: the Christian religion; the Buddhist religion.
3. the body of persons adhering to a particular set of beliefs and practices: a world council of religions.
4. the life or state of a monk, nun, etc.: to enter religion.
5. the practice of religious beliefs; ritual observance of faith.
6. something one believes in and follows devotedly; a point or matter of ethics or conscience: to make a religion of fighting prejudice.
7. religions, Archaic.religious rites.
8. Archaic.strict faithfulness; devotion: a religion to one's vow.
9. get religion, Informal.
a. to acquire a deep conviction of the validity of religious beliefs and practices.
b. to resolve to mend one's errant ways: The company got religion and stopped making dangerous products.
es•tab•lish•ment
Pronunciation: (i-stab'lish-munt), [key]
—n.
1. the act or an instance of establishing.
2. the state or fact of being established.
3. something established; a constituted order or system.
4. (often cap.) the existing power structure in society; the dominant groups in society and their customs or institutions; institutional authority (usually prec. by the): The Establishment believes exploring outer space is worth any tax money spent.
:
And you thought, providing meanings and pronunciations helped make your case. Not at all. They aren't even debatable. The fact that government cannot favor a religion or another is fundamental. And that it cannot prevent people from practicing whatever they choose to. And that means the government cannot prevent you from participating in your religious rituals. You can pray anywhere, anything that you feel like. But the government cannot promote your beliefs, or that of any group. The government represents all, those who have one of several beliefs and those who don't.
Quote:
Congress shall make no law, regarding an institution (9) as a school, hospital, etc, (5) the practice of religious beliefs; ritual observance of faith. (but congress did, when congress banned school prayer. a school is an establishment)
One of the basic Christian philosophies is that people have a choice. It is the individuals rights to have a choice. (First Amendment)
And you have that choice. I know I have that choice. But I don't have the expectations from the government to support or take away my views at a public place.
Public praying at public schools is infringing on that separation. By condoning the activity, government would be breaking the first amendment, sponsoring a religious activity. The first amendment allows you, however, to pray if you so choose. And you can. Government cannot prevent you from doing that. Try it.
Status:
"It Can't Rain All The Time"
(set 29 days ago)
Location: North Pacific
15,754 posts, read 7,593,334 times
Reputation: 2576
Quote:
Originally Posted by EinsteinsGhost
[/font]And you thought, providing meanings and pronunciations helped make your case. Not at all. They aren't even debatable. The fact that government cannot favor a religion or another is fundamental. And that it cannot prevent people from practicing whatever they choose to. And that means the government cannot prevent you from participating in your religious rituals. You can pray anywhere, anything that you feel like. But the government cannot promote your beliefs, or that of any group. The government represents all, those who have one of several beliefs and those who don't.
[font=Century Gothic]
And you have that choice. I know I have that choice. But I don't have the expectations from the government to support or take away my views at a public place.
Public praying at public schools is infringing on that separation. By condoning the activity, government would be breaking the first amendment, sponsoring a religious activity. The first amendment allows you, however, to pray if you so choose. And you can. Government cannot prevent you from doing that. Try it.
I'm not going to further iterate more than I have already on this subject.
in it I found that Thomas Jefferson wrote another letter.
Quote:
"To the corruptions of Christianity I am, indeed, opposed; but not to the genuine precepts of Jesus himself. I am a Christian, in the only sense in which He wished any one to be; sincerely attached to his doctrines, in preference to all others; ascribing to Himself every human excellence; and believing He never claimed any other." "April 21, 1803 letter to Doctor Benjamin Rush", The Writings of Thomas Jefferson (Albert Ellery Bergh, ed. (1853), The Thomas Jefferson Memorial Association): p. 379, http://www.constitution.org/tj/jeff10.txt, retrieved on 2009-05-23,
I do not know where you people keep coming up with this stuff, and I do not particularly care.
If we have to keep hearing non-believers voice, then they sure as heck better be hearing the voice those of belief. It is a two-way street on respect.
I do not know where you people keep coming up with this stuff, and I do not particularly care.
If we have to keep hearing non-believers voice, then they sure as heck better be hearing the voice those of belief. It is a two-way street on respect.
Yes it is, and you should spend some time understanding and practicing that you preach. That two way street is what forces government out of religion. Or, at least, it is supposed to. You are free to pray. You shouldn't expect the government to sponsor your prayers.
When you provide quotes from the founding fathers about their personal beliefs, know that they are... personal beliefs. They weren't just grown up people, they were able to recognize that, and separate their ideas from how the country as a whole should be governed. You fail to understand that. And reiterating stuff over and over is not going to accomplish that.
You can't tolerate even secularism. How can you tolerate any other religion, if it were override yours? That is the underlying issue, and hence separation of government and religion. The country was never meant to be governed on religious grounds.
I - Freedom of Speech, Press, Religion and Petition
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.
Pronunciation: (ri-lij'un), [key]
—n.
1. a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe, esp. when considered as the creation of a superhuman agency or agencies, usually involving devotional and ritual observances, and often containing a moral code governing the conduct of human affairs.
2. a specific fundamental set of beliefs and practices generally agreed upon by a number of persons or sects: the Christian religion; the Buddhist religion.
3. the body of persons adhering to a particular set of beliefs and practices: a world council of religions.
4. the life or state of a monk, nun, etc.: to enter religion.
5. the practice of religious beliefs; ritual observance of faith.
6. something one believes in and follows devotedly; a point or matter of ethics or conscience: to make a religion of fighting prejudice.
7. religions, Archaic.religious rites.
8. Archaic.strict faithfulness; devotion: a religion to one's vow.
9. get religion, Informal.
a. to acquire a deep conviction of the validity of religious beliefs and practices.
b. to resolve to mend one's errant ways: The company got religion and stopped making dangerous products.
es•tab•lish•ment
Pronunciation: (i-stab'lish-munt), [key]
—n.
1. the act or an instance of establishing.
2. the state or fact of being established.
3. something established; a constituted order or system.
4. (often cap.) the existing power structure in society; the dominant groups in society and their customs or institutions; institutional authority (usually prec. by the): The Establishment believes exploring outer space is worth any tax money spent.
5. (often cap.) the dominant group in a field of endeavor, organization, etc. (usually prec. by the): the literary Establishment.
6. a household; place of residence including its furnishings, grounds, etc.
7. a place of business together with its employees, merchandise, equipment, etc.
8. a permanent civil, military, or other force or organization.
9. an institution, as a school, hospital, etc.
10. the recognition by a state of a church as the state church.
11. the church so recognized, esp. the Church of England.
12. Archaic.a fixed or settled income.
Congress shall make no law, regarding an institution (9) as a school, hospital, etc, (5) the practice of religious beliefs; ritual observance of faith. (but congress did, when congress banned school prayer. a school is an establishment)
One of the basic Christian philosophies is that people have a choice. It is the individuals rights to have a choice. (First Amendment)
phi•los•o•phy
Pronunciation: (fi-los'u-fē), [key]
—n.,
—pl. -phies.
1. the rational investigation of the truths and principles of being, knowledge, or conduct.
2. any of the three branches, namely natural philosophy, moral philosophy, and metaphysical philosophy, that are accepted as composing this study.
3. a system of philosophical doctrine: the philosophy of Spinoza.
4. the critical study of the basic principles and concepts of a particular branch of knowledge, esp. with a view to improving or reconstituting them: the philosophy of science.
5. a system of principles for guidance in practical affairs.
6. a philosophical attitude, as one of composure and calm in the presence of troubles or annoyances.
I believe it is safe to say that no other religious philosophical doctrine other than Christianity is a choice given. The first amendment is based on the person's choice.
Mathew 28:19 says to teach to all nations.
Knowledge is power, without knowledge we are without the power to choose for ourselves that which we believe is right. We are not puppets on a string under Christ's teachings, in all things we have a choice. To make the right one for ourselves one must receive the teaching first, without it, they will remain, ignorant of all things. So based on Mathew 28:19, teach them so they will know they have a choice, reconciled with the first amendment, the individual has a choice, which is the Christian way.
Teach all nations---so they will know, they have a choice.
An establishment is also a church. The letter written by Jefferson that every one keeps harping on, the other letter written by Washington, the Treaty of Tripoli 1796-97 (which may I remind people has a problem with the disappearing act with article 11 and the President signed it so as to get military aid pronto, because people were being slaughtered, by Muslim Pirates) does not reconcile with the re-negotiated Treaty of Tripoli 1805-06, in it the article 11 was dropped. (It never appears again)
With the few founding father's government documents one can come up with to point away from Christianity, there are many Avalon Project - The American Constitution - A Documentary Record that point toward Christianity and its philosophical core beliefs in that as a Christian, Christ gave to us a choice, a freedom to be whoever we wanted to be. As so stated in, the First Amendment. (His wish, was for people to choose Him, to love Him, but He knows they have a choice.)
Matthew 28:19 is only part about teaching...it is also about baptizing. "Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:" It is not so much about presenting a choice as it is a call to evanglize and convert countries in their entirety...something that cannot be done practically without the establishment of that religion in a country. Additionally Christianity does give you a choice...become Christian or burn for your sins...This is similar to how most historical Christian countries gave people a choice...convert or hang/burn/lose your head/face exile.
and if I am not mistaken a baptism in Christianity means a religious conversion or committiment of faith.
It is likely that since christianity was the dominant religion in the 18th century any established religion would have been a Church, if it was allowed...However, you have to look at the audience in Washington's letter especially. It was the Jews of Newport. Judaism is a completely different religion from Christianity and Washington extended his assurance to the Jews of Newport that they would be free of government religious interference. Thus it is unlikely, and for the afformentioned reasons illogical that they wanted to establish the Christian religion in general in the government.
Finally citing definition 11 of establishment as the definite one is a reach at best. This is especially the case considering what I said before of...If they intended establishment to refer to a Church why didn't they use the term church in the amendment?
On a side note as to the treaty of tripoli article 11 was ratified by congress and acceded to by President Adams which is all that is needed to determine the Congress and President Adams' views on that section. Therefore resolving other doubts about the treaty is outside the scope of this discussion.
So again how do you reconcile the notion of baptizing nations into Chrisitianity with congress not being allowed to establish a religion? It is clear you cannot due to your tiresome reviews of definitions and half quotes of bible versus. The fact of the matter is that if Chrisitian principles were a part of the government the first amendment and the gospel of Matthew would not be directly contradictory.
PS
Congress did not make a law banning school prayer the Supreme court abolished mandatory school prayer laws. Read the court cases I linked.
Last edited by Randomstudent; 05-25-2010 at 05:53 PM..
Status:
"It Can't Rain All The Time"
(set 29 days ago)
Location: North Pacific
15,754 posts, read 7,593,334 times
Reputation: 2576
Quote:
Originally Posted by EinsteinsGhost
Yes it is, and you should spend some time understanding and practicing that you preach. That two way street is what forces government out of religion. Or, at least, it is supposed to. You are free to pray. You shouldn't expect the government to sponsor your prayers.
When you provide quotes from the founding fathers about their personal beliefs, know that they are... personal beliefs. They weren't just grown up people, they were able to recognize that, and separate their ideas from how the country as a whole should be governed. You fail to understand that. And reiterating stuff over and over is not going to accomplish that.
You can't tolerate even secularism. How can you tolerate any other religion, if it were override yours? That is the underlying issue, and hence separation of government and religion. The country was never meant to be governed on religious grounds.
No one wants to read a letter written by Thomas Jefferson that states he was a Christian because that would dispute the claim that Thomas Jefferson had no religious affiliation.
I do not know where people come up with their information. And by all means do not read anything I have cited in this discussion, because it is then you might learn something, different. Stay with your brainwashed learning....and never ask the question why and further investigate, because that would be bad. That would be very bad.
Status:
"It Can't Rain All The Time"
(set 29 days ago)
Location: North Pacific
15,754 posts, read 7,593,334 times
Reputation: 2576
Quote:
Originally Posted by Randomstudent
Matthew 28:19 is only part about teaching...it is also about baptizing. "Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:" It is not so much about presenting a choice as it is a call to evanglize and convert countries in their entirety...something that cannot be done practically without the establishment of that religion in a country. Additionally Christianity does give you a choice...become Christian or burn for your sins...This is similar to how most historical Christian countries gave people a choice...convert or hang/burn/lose your head/face exile.
and if I am not mistaken a baptism in Christianity means a religious conversion or committiment of faith.
It is likely that since christianity was the dominant religion in the 18th century any established religion would have been a Church, if it was allowed...However, you have to look at the audience in Washington's letter especially. It was the Jews of Newport. Judaism is a completely different religion from Christianity and Washington extended his assurance to the Jews of Newport that they would be free of government religious interference. Thus it is unlikely, and for the afformentioned reasons illogical that they wanted to establish the Christian religion in general in the government.
Finally citing definition 11 of establishment as the definite one is a reach at best. This is especially the case considering what I said before of...If they intended establishment to refer to a Church why didn't they use the term church in the amendment?
On a side note as to the treaty of tripoli article 11 was ratified by congress and acceded to by President Adams which is all that is needed to determine the Congress and President Adams' views on that section. Therefore resolving other doubts about the treaty is outside the scope of this discussion.
So again how do you reconcile the notion of baptizing nations into Chrisitianity with congress not being allowed to establish a religion? It is clear you cannot due to your tiresome reviews of definitions and half quotes of bible versus. The fact of the matter is that if Chrisitian principles were a part of the government the first amendment and the gospel of Matthew would not be directly contradictory.
PS
Congress did not make a law banning school prayer the Supreme court abolished mandatory school prayer laws. Read the court cases I linked.
First off, I didn't need to finish the quotation of Mathew 28:11, you knew it correct? Again, teach (to give knowledge to) the nations so they have knowledge that they have a choice. How, does that reconcile? They have a choice, through knowledge. Wow, how hard is that for anyone to understand.
Second, I also understand your PS and I also understand there is more to it than what is in those Supreme Court cases.
Quote:
Americans feel that instead of celebrating their love for God in public, they're being forced to hide their faith behind closed doors. That's wrong. Americans should never have to hide their faith. But some Americans have been denied the right to express their religion and that has to stop. That has happened and it has to stop. It is crucial that government does not dictate or demand specific religious views, but equally crucial that government doesn't prevent the expression of specific religious views. 1995 SPEECH BY PRESIDENT CLINTON ON RELIGIOUS LIBERTY; PART 2
Just like there is more to the Treaty of Tripoli and the British slaves and why that happened the way that it happened. But you do not want to know that. Sorry, darling, but I can't help ya. Maybe you should trot your little fanny over there and tell them people we are not a Christian Nation, then find out just how well that works out for you.
Until people get out of their boxes and look for the whole story, there is nothing any one can do, not one for the other.
I looked at what you provided. I took the time to ask and have answered my questions. There really is nothing farther for us to discuss unless you have another spin on it that you wish for me to look at, now is there.
And finally, do you care to look at what this man has to say:
The original United States Constitution with its Bill of Rights provides that rational and divinely inspired “golden mean” for a strong and safe country standing on the Gospel of Jesus Christ where the government is servant to the people. “But he that is
greatest among you shall be your servant.” (Matthew 23:11)
Probably not, so----
good day to you sir.
PS: side note---did you know that a biblical church is a group of people? look into the seven churches mentioned in Revelations, it'll blow your mind and answer the question why the word church does not appear in the formal government documents.
Last edited by Ellis Bell; 05-26-2010 at 12:56 AM..
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That would be very bad.
