Why does Berkeley and other liberals hate the military (generation, Clinton, violent crime)

[jtur88]

Originally Posted by bulldogdad

I believe that sums you up.

Are you paying attention? You are the one who just admitted intentionally spamming the board with ad hominem attacks, and then accuse me of it. Say hello to the trolls and morons on my ignore list. They will be your company from now on.

[Bulldogdad]

Well you certainly told me off. How will I ever make it through the day.

[elamigo]

Originally Posted by jtur88

To automatically swing back at the punk who slaps you is the McDonalds solution. Sometimes when someone slaps your face, you need to think it through and do the smart thing. Any idiot can go ballistic and think only of wild and mindless retaliation.

A decade is nothing. The people in that part of the world possess a quality that lies beyond the imagination of anyone in America. It is called Patience. They will wait us out.

It's been nearly a decade, and our policymakers haven't even sat down yet and thought about why they attacked us in the first place. Apparently, the morons still think the reason is "because they hate freedom" and because "all they want to do is kill innocent people". It would be funny if it were not so sad.

Again, we differ on this one. There are times that immediate response is also the appropriate response. Your comment ignores the example I presented on Israel. Now that they are being patient and more restricted on their responses they are getting hit more often.
So the other guys have patience, that is a smart move I must say. Actually I do agree with you. Us Americans do not really understand the middle eastern culture mentality. We have made that mistake in the past on other issues.
The "because they hate our freedom" observation I believe is simple inflamatory rhetoric to incite the masses to hate them. That is nothing new and different than what they do over there in the other part of the world.
The bottom line to me is that if you believe we should just sit down and take it, that is your choice, not mine.
Also, you are talking as if let us say 9/11 is the only incident. There have been a few before that like the first incident on the World Trade Center. So to retailate out of as you say is not some McDonald type solution. It been a long time coming. Eventually someone took action.
You do have a disdain to what we as a nation stand for, specially our capitalistic economy. You just have a different way of seeing things and how to resolve them. To me you simply have socialist/communist inclinations and I just do not share your views. That is how you come across with me. It is just that simple.

You have a great day.
El Amigo

[jtur88]

We took 2,995 losses in a terrorist attack and have already given up another 5,484 through our mindless retaliation.
So slapping back, in this case, has had no effect except to double the rate at which Americans die.

Several more attacks since 9/11 would have taken more lives except that the operatives bungled the jobs, one of them just this month. No evidence that our retaliation slowed the course.

There was a war that lasted one day, September 11 2001. We lost decisively. We immediately started another loosely related war, and we are losing that one, too. When will we learn?

When you build your foreign policy on the four pillars of Fear, Anger, Hatred and Ignorance, you are certain to fail in the long run, if not immediately.

[elamigo]

Originally Posted by jtur88

We took 2,995 losses in a terrorist attack and have already given up another 5,484 through our mindless retaliation.
So slapping back, in this case, has had no effect except to double the rate at which Americans die.
I can tell you do not have much logic in strategy and political world affairs.
To judge a war on number only is not good logic. This type of war is very different than conventional war.
Also, mindless retaliation? Again, I reiterate that you and I differ on this. Retaliation is not a matter of simple number. How much lose of life is accepted? Are we suppose to engage in military action and put a number of loses as the time to stop a war regardless of how we are doing? It does not make sense.
Several more attacks since 9/11 would have taken more lives except that the operatives bungled the jobs, one of them just this month. No evidence that our retaliation slowed the course.
No evidence? Now this is a very subjective conclusion. Hard to prove either way I must admit. Your conclusion to me is is just as biased as I saying our response has slowed the course to be fair.
If there is a law that demands seat belts. We can only calculate how many lives have been saved. However, can we truly say how many lives have been saved? No, we can never predict the unkown. We can only surmise that if deaths are down after that law is put into effect is pretty much a good educated guess. Of course detractors like you could say it is not proof so many lives were saved. An example here in El Paso: They installed cameras on some key intersections that had high traffic accidents and deaths. People complained about it giving different reasons. However, after a year the accidents numbers were down significantly. I guess to you it does not prove the cameras were the reason for that. The same I see your comment. Since the beginning of the war when they saw our resolve to response we have not have a major attack with the frequency we had before the war. Of course that does not mean slowing down their course to you also.
There was a war that lasted one day, September 11 2001. We lost decisively. We immediately started another loosely related war, and we are losing that one, too. When will we learn?
We are loosing? What is your logic on that. We are there having less loses. We may not have Bin Laden but is he on the run or not? He is smart guy. Hitler spent a few years hidding also. Eventually he lost the war. We do not have clear front lines as I said. This is a different type of war. It takes different strategy, one we as a nation are not used to. However, I repeat since your have strong disdain for our capitalist principles they extend disagreement to ANYTHING WE DO. Also, you are classifing something wrongly. 9/11 was a one day war? Who told you that? That event is simply one of many other events on the same issue of confrontation. You may call it a battle but not a war. This war is still going. We did not start another war as you claim. That has been going on for a while to say the least since the first attack on the World Trade Center. I personnaly do not count you as a WE when you said we lost decisively. I am not saying you have to agree with ALL our nations decisions. Our nation has made great mistakes in history. That is part of the human dimension. I do not consider you much of the WE because you have shown clear disdain to pretty much everthing our nation has done in every area whether economics, policy, racial issues, social issues, etc. Pretty much at every discussion I see you involved you take the opportunity to put down our nation for anything we do. Your disdain is very specific in economic issues and you support socialist/communist views that to me are not in line with the capitalist/democratic/republican philosophy we as a nation support. To me there is a line where if you do not support those general principles we as a nation espouse so legally you may be an American but in spirit you are not as far as I am concerned. Again, I have no problem that Americans express disagreement with decisions and policies but it is different when we put down our general policital/economic/republican principals below socialist/communist principles. They are not our way of life as a nation.
When you build your foreign policy on the four pillars of Fear, Anger, Hatred and Ignorance, you are certain to fail in the long run, if not immediately.

Fear, Anger, Hatred and Ignorance is a tactic used on the other nations also. They are tactics to get national support so it is not something unique to our nation. I am not saying that good. I simply saying that you portraying it as if it our tactic is not a accurate picture.
In miltary classes we have covered how nations of the world use the media to get the support for a war. It is part of strategy. I am sure you have seen the poster we used in WWII for war support, have you? How about the posters used by the Germans on the other side of the war? Have you seen the posters used by arab countries today? How about the messages used by North Korea on their people? Well, why go that far by the messages used by Cuba of the impending US invasion on their island to have the people believe it is important for them to train have all citizens train on defending their homeland and willingly send their young men and women to military training. How about the young children to already have weapons training? Use your logic across the board, not just us.

You have a great day.
El Amigo

[Pretzelogik]

Originally Posted by sailordave

OK, you have the Berkeley council and mayor telling the US Marines they are unwanted and unwelcomed intruders to their city and actively worked to try to get them evicted from their city. Even the mayor dressed in pink and protested outside their office telling them to get out of his city. You have an organization of public school teachers and college professors whose goal is to try to prevent military recruiters from signing up any of their students. You have college professors who've attacked military recruiters' display. You have ROTC and military recruiting stations attacked and vandalized. Why this violent hatred of the US Military and does this hatred also extend to the country the military defends?

Here is the deal....they don't just hate the military.......the HATE the good ol USA!! It's called political/social suicide

[pcardiff]

Why do people hate the military?
Well, people should not hate. I can understand a distaste for prosecuting our present policies, tho.
We should first understand that the reason some people join the military is to get a job, i.e., for economic reasons, to get trained. It's not ideological at all.
Having said that, once you join you have to admit that what you'll be doing for that economic opportunity may be inherantly unjust. Best to somehow stay away from depoyment. We have no fight with countries, just with the ideologies of the Taliban, and al Qaeda, who must resort to violence to make their point. Violence will never win. A future-looking person is already trying to de-program the violent extremists who equate religion with politics.
Just because I would not join the military because I needed an occupation does not mean that I hate people who do. It's sorta like being forced, by capitalism, into doing sub-obtimal work. You have these responsibilities that go beyond yourself and you realize you gotta do something. But I doubt there are many people out there who really believe "Yeah let's blow up Iran!" (Note that if you do, I hope those Iranians find you before you find them, because you're doing the universe a disservice, not just your country.) All responsibility lies in our heart and action alone.
Now military families have gotten this reputation over the years, that because they chose the military, and their dads before them, and they decide to live on base, etc., that they repudiated education. Some do act that way - as if their orders are all that mattered. Yet it's the responsibility of a true soldier to countermand an order if he feels it goes against natural law, and killing innocents (non-combatants) is against natural law.
It is a big boys club for some, a men's fraternity for others, a way to truly serve your country for the exceptional, even a source of outlet for the suicidal, but it is certainly not for everyone.

[betamanlet]

Originally Posted by sailordave

OK, you have the Berkeley council and mayor telling the US Marines they are unwanted and unwelcomed intruders to their city and actively worked to try to get them evicted from their city. Even the mayor dressed in pink and protested outside their office telling them to get out of his city. You have an organization of public school teachers and college professors whose goal is to try to prevent military recruiters from signing up any of their students. You have college professors who've attacked military recruiters' display. You have ROTC and military recruiting stations attacked and vandalized. Why this violent hatred of the US Military and does this hatred also extend to the country the military defends?

They blame Dont Ask Dont Tell on the military, when it's CONGRESS that created the policy, not the military. Notice these same libs try to ban the military from campus for recruiting, but don't ban congress from recruiting people from campuses, despite it being CONGRESS that passed don't ask dont tell?

[funkadelic]

fact is, you got good people and bad people everywhere. bad people spread hate, good people spread love. and love is much stronger than hate, because hate consumes more energy and causes damage to self. any liberal who points fingers and use words like "banality" are too much in their head without any life experience. I am an asian american, and i have served the U.S. Army for 7 yrs, and they are great people, none of them were ever racist to me, and were very intelligent. My dad who speaks with a very thick indian accent, had many military friends from my unit, because he would always come to my parades and events. and you liberals claim to be the anti racist messiahs??? lol, you just got exposed from 80% of your claims that you are non racist while the military and conservatives are! pffft. sorry i exposed you all there, you liberals may have to change your mission objectives now, the military represents the country's people, hell even Iranian people don't hate their military, why? because they are smart enough to know that soldiers don't jump out of the sky, and become young men, they come out of the womb, and are a direct reflection of the american civilian population and pop culture, because every SOLDIER IS A CIVILIAN before THEY JOIN. to BULLDOGDAD, you can throw weird smiley faces all you want to, but would you curse your own son or nephew if they joined the service? and to conservatives, conservative means preservation of the Original America of the U.S. Constitution and the Bill of Rights. not an excuse to be racist. it doesn't matter anyway, because none of you have the ability or would dare attack a soldier in real life physically or mentally because that is a federal crime. so once a good hearted soldier realize that mental attacks are nothing but a joke, they can laugh and continue on with their duty, and all violence is fear based.

[Angorlee]

If the U.S. military was an extension of their marxist political beliefs they would be pro military. And it wouldn't matter how many people they would kill.