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Old 06-02-2010, 11:00 AM
 
7,953 posts, read 2,532,050 times
Reputation: 3069
Quote:
Originally Posted by padcrasher View Post
That's the ultimate consolation for me. Knowing that all this suffering is going to end one day as these brutal Israeli bigots get overwhelmed by the ever growing Palestinian population. Each and every year they become less and less of a majority. You want to build a wall to keep people out? Fine they'll be happy to raise their family with 9 kids inside your wall. Then one day this South African apartheid system will collapse and all those clever right wing Jewish bigots will get what's coming to them.
I can see how you might feel that way .. and I would suspect lots of people would think I feel that way too ... but I don't.

Just like here in America ... there are many good Israeli Jews of good moral character ... many who refuse to kill Palestinians .. and IDF soldiers coming back from the occupied territories and telling the truth about the atrocities, and trying to change things. So I refuse to condemn the people as a whole for the actions of their government who have gained the accomplice of the citizenry through lies and propaganda, otherwise, I'd be forced to condemn all of Americans for the atrocities being committed as we speak by our government and our soldiers in Iraq, Afghanistan, and Pakistan, or all of the aid we've given Israel which has allowed them the ability to commit their atrocities.

Without US support, Israel would not exist. So we all share in the blame.

Time for everyone to wake up and take a true moral stand.
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Old 06-02-2010, 11:29 AM
 
13,182 posts, read 7,656,867 times
Reputation: 4490
Quote:
Originally Posted by GuyNTexas View Post
I can see how you might feel that way .. and I would suspect lots of people would think I feel that way too ... but I don't.

Just like here in America ... there are many good Israeli Jews of good moral character ... many who refuse to kill Palestinians .. and IDF soldiers coming back from the occupied territories and telling the truth about the atrocities, and trying to change things. So I refuse to condemn the people as a whole for the actions of their government who have gained the accomplice of the citizenry through lies and propaganda, otherwise, I'd be forced to condemn all of Americans for the atrocities being committed as we speak by our government and our soldiers in Iraq, Afghanistan, and Pakistan, or all of the aid we've given Israel which has allowed them the ability to commit their atrocities.

Without US support, Israel would not exist. So we all share in the blame.

Time for everyone to wake up and take a true moral stand.
I think you are reading more into my post than what I wrote. I am happy for the inevitable collapse of the apartheid government in Israel. If Israeli Jews want to knock off the brutality and bigotry and work in a Democratic system in Israel fine by me. I well aware that most Jews are not as hardcore as the Israeli government is, as the Likud party is. I've lived in Encino California, Boca Raton Florida, Upper East Side NYC. I've liked almost all the Jewish people I've met. They are smart and classy for the most part. I attended the world series of poker in Vegas with my Jewish friend who was playing in it.
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Old 06-02-2010, 11:32 AM
 
Location: Dallas, TX
30,957 posts, read 12,513,053 times
Reputation: 10880
Noam Chomsky said it all better than I could, ever. An approach no sane person can have a problem with.


Interview with Israeli TV
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Old 06-02-2010, 12:28 PM
 
Location: Arizona High Desert
4,573 posts, read 3,197,334 times
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The Mediterranean Massacre by Justin Raimondo -- Antiwar.com
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Old 06-02-2010, 12:34 PM
 
Location: South Portland, Maine
2,348 posts, read 3,422,394 times
Reputation: 1467
[quote=GuyNTexas;14438986] [quote]
Quote:
I'll be happy to explain it to you. Contrary to popular belief (likely due to the NEVER ENDING CRIES of Israel and Jews) the Russians lost 3 times as many people at the hands of the Nazis (20 Million), yet it is only the Jews who have this eternal free pass to do anything they please ... commit any crime at all while wearing their Holocaust Tee Shirts. What one would expect is that Israel and the Jews would be more sensitive and not behave LIKE NAZIS, if indeed the Nazis were so terrible. In all, over 100 Million people died in WW II, yet every nation is expected to erect a Holocaust memorial and acknowledge the only real tragedy ... the Jewish tragedy. Of course, this is in keeping with tradition, given that God's chosen ones are they only real humans occupying the planet, and worthy of such memorial..
It's hard to dignify this statement with a response...



Quote:
Exactly. And it has a lot to do with constant propaganda, and a complete ignorance of the truth ... such as Hamas being a creation of Israeli intelligence to politically challenge Hezbollah, and then the PAL being created to challenge Hamas (quite literally the same thing as the CIA creating Al Qaeda).
Interesting?? I dont agree with it... but ineresting

Quote:
You see, it's always much more politically expedient to ethnically cleanse an unarmed people if there are groups of terrorists among them. And in looking at the situation ... how ignorant are these Arabs really? Are they so ignorant and hate filled that at every single moment when international pressure was greatest ... forcing the Israelis to finally talk peace legitimately that somehow, at the most inopportune time (for the Palestinians that is) that Hamas or Hezbollah would commit an atrocity, giving Israel the only reason they'd need to not only walk away from the peace talk, but engage military action and grab MORE LAND?
Yes! hatefilled and stupid... but more probably unorganized.. How can they want peace when they have clearly stated their intentions... there is NO middle ground??

Quote:
The history is all too clear (if you don't simply accept Israel's propagandistic story 100% of the time). Israel doesn't want peace, and they have NO INTENTION of allowing those they consider "Filthy Arabs" to have a portion of land Israel believes is theirs (which includes ALL OF IT).
Who's land is who's has often been decided by war and death throughout history.. along with religion land is probably the biggest cause for war.. So maybe its supporting the lesser of two evils.. At the end of the day I support Israel, the only democracy in the middle east who's not suppressing their own people with an archaic culture..

Quote:
You are so deluded. It's now documented news ... a member of the Israeli Knesset was ON BOARD .. and has testified that those commandos fired on unarmed civilians from the approaching boats, which is why these people defended themselves with sticks and knives, as any normal human being would when being attacked. In addition, this member of the Israeli government said that the commandos had a list of names and pictures of individuals that were targets to be MURDERED, because they were considered enemies of the state. That the plan was from the outset to inflict massive casualties in order to send a message to the rest not to come to the aid of these Palestinians whom Israel is intent upon starving to death.
I will have to take anything you say with a grain of salt at this point.. If the plan was really to inflict massive casualties.. as you say it was?? then why didnt they? why didnt they just sink the boats??

Quote:
These people were civilians attacked in the wee hours of the morning by commandos intent upon murdering them. How could they tell? Well, after raising a white flag (the international symbol of surrender) they were shot by these pirates of the IDF. These people are diplomats, humanitarians, working to assist a people the Israelis are slowly EXTERMINATING with their illegal blockade, condemned by the international community, and supported ONLY by their PIMPS in Washington DC.
We can agree to disagree.. humanatarians?? yea right!


Quote:
How about "just don't". Don't commit genocide and war crimes. Don't illegally occupy land that doesn't belong to you. Don't murder innocent women and children simply because they aren't Jews? And don't commit acts of piracy and war by attacking a humanitarian aid convoy in international waters in the first place?
Well this says it all.. this is exactley the place where all your opinions are formed.. Israel doesn't belong there and is an occupying force.. At this point there is no reasoning? no debating? no solutions? Some of what you said is interesting and bears more research on my part.. but in the end you did answer my question.. Is it Apathy... and the answer is No.. you side with the mission and objectives of these terror groups.
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Old 06-02-2010, 12:46 PM
 
Location: Dallas, TX
4,466 posts, read 5,020,232 times
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Hamas has repeatedly said they're willing to negotiate, they just not willing to negotiate whilst bent over with their pants around their ankles.

What astounds me time and time again is the extremely low levels of humanity,integrity and decency the die hard supporters of Israel want that country to sink to.

"IDF use children and civilian as human shields" -It's ok, Hamas does the same.

Fo you REALLY want democratic countries acting like militias and thugs? Do you expect nothing more than the worst from those who claim to be better?

Frankly, I'd be tempted to argue that me, and others like me, are the true believers in Israel. Because we believe they can be better than that, we believe they can change their ways and act in a way that demands respect.

I expect them to act better than common thugs, they know better than that.

Responding to a rocket attack that does little or no damage with White phosphorus bombs, killing hundreds of children, women, police and men is not retaliation, it's a slaughter.



I know Israelis a million times more level headed than Sanrene and similar posters, and because of that, there's hope still, but I doubt they can solve it on their own. International (UN) military presence is needed to control the borders and act as police and as a buffer.

I truly believe that Israel can better themselves and I truly believe they can coexist, but you cannot terrorize and bomb someone into compliance, it only breeds more resistance.
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Old 06-02-2010, 12:58 PM
 
13,182 posts, read 7,656,867 times
Reputation: 4490
Europeans don't know the half of it. Really you have no idea the mentality of the right wing in the USA.
It's so bizare and depraved that I've seen Europeans just laugh it off like they've come across some odd, absurd cult. It's unbelievable to them.

And we're about a 10 point swing in voting trends to going back to the 1800's, persecuting gays, and starting more wars.
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Old 06-02-2010, 01:03 PM
 
10,692 posts, read 8,507,194 times
Reputation: 3845
Hamas authorities refused to receive aid and supplies to the Gaza Strip.

Solomonia: Unreal: Hamas Refusing to Accept Transfer of Gaza Flotilla Aid

Flotilla aid refused by Hamas
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Old 06-02-2010, 01:06 PM
 
Location: South Portland, Maine
2,348 posts, read 3,422,394 times
Reputation: 1467
Quote:
Originally Posted by padcrasher View Post
Europeans don't know the half of it. Really you have no idea the mentality of the right wing in the USA.
It's so bizare and depraved that I've seen Europeans just laugh it off like they've come across some odd, absurd cult. It's unbelievable to them.

And we're about a 10 point swing in voting trends to going back to the 1800's, persecuting gays, and starting more wars.
I dont believe that.. I believe there is a "libertarian" movement.. not right wing.. not lft wing.. I think the libertarians in general have more disdain for the left but they are no supporters of the right either.. people are realizing that neither the right or left express their views and sick and tired or partisan politics..

But there is definately a shift.. I think the majority see the dangers of a left of center government and are tired of goverment doing business as usual..
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Old 06-02-2010, 01:13 PM
 
Location: Dallas, TX
4,466 posts, read 5,020,232 times
Reputation: 2713
Quote:
Originally Posted by flycessna View Post
I dont believe that.. I believe there is a "libertarian" movement.. not right wing.. not lft wing.. I think the libertarians in general have more disdain for the left but they are no supporters of the right either.. people are realizing that neither the right or left express their views and sick and tired or partisan politics..

But there is definately a shift.. I think the majority see the dangers of a left of center government and are tired of goverment doing business as usual..
To give you an idea of what he's talking about, what you call a left-centrist government is equal to our right wing governments (That's right, not right-center).

That's what he means by it, Obama would be in a right wing party in almost all European countries.

This is utterly off topic though.
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