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Originally Posted by Dd714
Are you saying that you think the video evidence is faked? Some sort of hollywood trickery?
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No, that's not at all what I am saying .. and it should be painfully clear what it is that I'm implying. But I'll spell it out for you:
1) Given that this raid occurred in the wee hours of the morning as a surprise "inspection" ... how likely is it that a camera was setup on the deck of that ship to capture the initial boarding of it at 4:30 am simply by chance? The answer is none! Consequently, someone aboard that ship must have had advanced knowledge of the raid ... and exactly when to expect it. Therefore, it's logical to assume such a person or persons would be privy to Israeli operational planning ... Israeli agents. I cannot blindly accept that this was just a coincidence, given the hour in which the raid occurred.
I know this is beyond the intellectual capacity for some of you surface thinkers ... that somehow it's quite normal for a coincidental filming of a surprise raid in the ensuing moments. This itself is not evidence, but it does summon questions.
2) According to the Israeli Knesset member on board that ship, these commandos opened fire from the approaching boats before the these commandos repelled from the chopper ... with at least one person killed, why would anyone expect these people to not defend themselves? And if they were a bunch of "terrorists", why would they not be better armed? Are metal poles and kitchen knives the NEW Weapons of Mass Destruction which imperils poor Israel?
3) Something happened prior to the video that is being shown, and I say that because it's highly unlikely that this many "activists" would be sitting on deck all night long ... ready and waiting to attack a surprise boarding party. That something has already been identified in #2 ... Israelis opening fire as they approached ... which served notice to these people that they were under attack, allowing them to quickly mobilize and defend themselves.
4) If this were a simple "Inspection" operation, it would have been performed in a more straight forward manner, such that is common in such actions ... in daylight hours, these Israelis could have approached the ship from both sides ... announced their request to board and inspect, and demand compliance from it's captain. At that point, an orderly boarding could have been executed WITHOUT GUNFIRE or death. If the Captain refused to allow the boarding, and or attempted to leave, then more forceful action might then be called for, first by disabling the ship's rudder, and thereby making the ship unable to navigate and flee.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dd714
I am just apallingly amazed. While both sides are acknowledging the video shows the activists being the aggressors, the debate has moved on to weather a blockade is legal and lawful, and thus a commando drop was warranted. It's a legitimate debate.
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And I'm amazed by the appallingly ignorant lack of common sense, as well as the avoidance of the fundamental issue that you'd LIKE TO continue ignoring ... that these people were attacked by commandos in the wee hours of the morning by gunfire, and had EVERY RIGHT to defend themselves the best way they could, as anyone would do when their lives are being threatened.
The FACT that such a raid of this type by INTERNATIONAL LAW is an act of piracy on the open seas is not debatable .. it's just a fact.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dd714
You are still back on square one, because you so embarassingly stated in an earlier post (before the video evidence was released) that "no way could a commando group be subdued by a mob armed with sticks and knives", arguing that the events did not happen as the video shown. You forced yourself into a box of denial, and thus your attempts at debate, which merely repeat over and over "do you think??? do you use rational judgement????" are pitful.
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And I stand by that statement. They were not subdued, were they? Did any of the commandos die, or were they the only ones doing the killing? My rejection of some of the initial propaganda .. such as these people disarmed the commandos wielding poles ... that they took away their weapons and used them against the commandos which necessitated the commandos to open fire is the story I totally rejected at the time, and still do. That the Israelis suffered no deaths (to the best of my knowledge ... maybe you have other information?), and no gunshot wounds, I think it's safe to say that the "activists" were not firing on commandos, but the other way around.
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Originally Posted by Dd714
Listen, I don't mean to pick on you. Really I have no horse in this race, I am happy to debate the legality of the blockade but my interest really is in the tactics in use. But when a poster so blatantly and repeatedly contradicts the obvious, and tries to hide his error with a wall of insults, then I have to say my two cents. It's like entering the twilight zone of denial, even for the crazies in this forum.
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Apparently, what is obvious to some, is a complete mystery to others. There is only one obvious issue at hand here ... the IDF engage in murderous rampages on a daily freaking basis, and is well documented. The propaganda that comes out of the Israeli government ranges from the implausible, to the absurd, and this is a classic example of it.
The Israeli strong armed tactics are renowned, and the idea that some Palestinian "activists" on an aid mission were in reality terrorists lying in wait for this "surprise raid" at 4:30 am, and attacked these otherwise peaceful commandos who were FORCED to defend themselves lies firmly in the absurd category. That this is not immediately obvious to you is a testament to your residence in the twilight zone, not mine.
I even heard on the AP news wire yesterday that three Hamas activists on the ship have been linked to Al Qaeda (according to the Israeli government). Imagine that ... well of course that settles the debate doesn't it ... AL QAEDA is now in league with Hamas, so this IS AN ISSUE FOR AMERICA TO SUPPORT ISRAEL!!!!!
Look, you and others seem to suffer a convenient case of amnesia of history, as well as difficulty identifying when Israel engages in blatant lies. I have a fool proof method to help you .... you can tell when Israel lies by noticing when THERE LIPS MOVE.
Now if you want to debate the subject by regurgitating Israeli propaganda as if it were the gospel truth, rather than utilize a modicum of common sense, I don't think you stand on a very firm foundation ... in fact, you're standing in quicksand.
With the majority of the world condemning these actions, any desperate attempt to find some justification is pure propaganda.
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