Portland: Living in the City (South Portland, Westbrook: cul-de-sac, apartment, rentals)

[v5200]

Hello- I'm thinking of relocating to Portland from CT. I'm 45, single, and want to experience more of a "city" atmosphere- somewhere that you can walk to restaurants, shops, grocery stores, etc.

I would love to hear from folks that know Portland if there are places that fit this description. I know it's not NYC or Boston, but are there "livable" portions of the city? How is the scene for singles? Does the downtown area thrive in the winter? Do people like living in the city?

Thanks for your input!

[lrfox]

Originally Posted by v5200

Hello- I'm thinking of relocating to Portland from CT. I'm 45, single, and want to experience more of a "city" atmosphere- somewhere that you can walk to restaurants, shops, grocery stores, etc.

I would love to hear from folks that know Portland if there are places that fit this description. I know it's not NYC or Boston, but are there "livable" portions of the city? How is the scene for singles? Does the downtown area thrive in the winter? Do people like living in the city?

Thanks for your input!

Well, what exactly do you mean, "city" atmosphere? Also, where in CT are you coming from? The reason I ask, is how, "city" Portland feels will probably be dependent on what you're used to. What about Portland attracted you to it?

Portland is the largest city in Maine so to those who've spent their entire lives in Maine it is THE city. However, Portland is still really small when viewed relative to the rest of the country. You say you know it's not Boston and New York, and it's a good thing you don't have those expectations as they can lead to disappointment if you went in with them. Portland has a population of around 63,000. That's small. In fact, On a nationwide scale, only THREE states do not contain a city larger than Portland Maine-- Wyoming, Vermont, and West Virginia-- and Charlseton, WV isn't only slightly smaller than Portland. Other than that, every other state has at least ONE city (often quite a bit more) that is larger than Portland.

Before I lived in Portland, I lived in Providence, Washington DC and metro Boston. As you mentioned, Portland isn't like Boston (and thus not like Washington as it's larger too), but Providence even dwarfs it (about 3x the size of Portland). To me, Portland felt like more of a mid-size town than it did an urban environment.

Portland is "urban" in that it's a city. It's the cultural and economic capital of Maine. However, the attitude is different. It's very laid back (again leading to that town-like atmosphere) and easy going. It lacks the flashiness of most urban areas. Portland has some great restaurants, but you won't find the designer-made chic restaurants that have dress codes in Portland; rather everything is very causual and simple. Same goes for the nightlife. Portland doesn't have nightclubs or chic lounges, it has laid back pubs and sports-style bars much like you'd find in many seaside towns. There isn't a real "urban" culture in Portland.

Portland is minimally urban in setup too. For a Northeastern city, Portland is relatively lower density. In fact, much of the city itself is suburban (detached homes, yards, etc) and even borderline rural near the periphery. Portland's downtown is very nice and walkable, but it's a pretty small area. It's where the bulk of everything (restaurants, bars, shops, etc) are and it's absolutely active. It's made up of two districts... The "Old Port" which is literally the old port area of town and that's a handful of blocks between Congress Street and Commercial/the Waterfront. Then you have what is referred to as the Arts District which is essentially from Monument Square on Congress street to the Congress Street intersection with High Street. This is "downtown Portland" and it's very walkable. Like any town, it's quieter on the weekends and after work hours during the week. Given that tourism is Portland's primary economy, it is notably quiet during the winter and spring, but it's not "dead." There are plenty of people who live and work there year round as it's still the economic and cultural hub of Maine.

There are rentals and condos in many of the nice older buildings throughout downtown and they can be had at reasonable prices. In Maine, people generally value a home and a yard and Portland's no different. The bulk of people choose to live outside the core of town. The residential areas that surround Portland's downtown core will be where you find the most "urban" living options... wall-to-wall homes. These neighborhoods are The West End, East End, Parkside and Bayside. Bayside is ugly, but it's the closest to the grocery stores. It's parking lot laden and hard to call "urban." East and West Ends are very nice. Both are located on elevated land offering great views. Combine that with the historic housing stocks, and you have nice residential neighborhoods. You can walk downtown easily from either one. A good chunk of the West End is more suburban (bits of the East End are too) than urban, but it's older suburban which is still pretty walkable (no cul-de-sacs this close to downtown). Parkside is located between Deerking Oaks Park and Congress Street. It's nice... there are many older homes and rentals here and it's very close to downtown.

"Livability" is tough to define too. The neighborhoods I listed are all livable. Portland is a very safe city and there is no "bad area" of town. Bayside is, like I said, ugly, but it's not a terrible place. Grant Street is located in Parkside. This street has a slightly negative reputation for some reason I can't put my finger on, but it's not bad at all. In fact, there are some very nice properties for rent on it and it's very family oriented. Portland isn't ethnic at all at over 91% non-hispanic white. However, it's accepting of all races and that 9% of non-whites are well represented and spread throughout the city. There are no "ethnic" neighborhoods.

One of the biggest things that made Portland feel less than urban to me was it's complete lack of neighborhood centers. Even small cities all over have commercial centers in the middle of neighborhoods outside of the central core. These neighborhood centers contain restaurants, shops, a bar or two, etc (acting essentially as a "downtown" for a neighborhood). Boston is replite with them (Roslindale, Harvard, Porter, Davis, Coolidge Corner, etc) as are most major cities. Providence has tons (Thayer/College Hill, Fed. Hill, Wayland Sq., Fox Point, etc). Portland has none. Downtown Portland is THE commercial district for the entire city. There are some shops on some streets (i.e. on Stevens ave or at Woodfords Corners) but they're hardly as walkable, as numerous, and as varied as typical neighborhood centers (it's REALLY a stretch to call these areas, "neighborhood centers"). I think neighborhood centers are the behind-the-scenes lifeblood of cities and Portland completely lacks that aspect of "urban" life.

As far as the "scene" goes, I can only offer so much perspective as we're at different stages of life. In general, I've heard the singles-scene as being "so-so" in Portland. Portland's good schools, relative affordability, and low crime as well as its mostly suburban make up make it a VERY family oriented town. Also, since it's largest industry is tourism, there aren't really an abundance of single professionals around. Almost anyone I knew over age 35 and single in Portland required help from eHarmony or a similar service. The bar scene is pretty weak and MOSTLY dominated by people in their 20s. In order to have success, you'd probably have to get lucky at work or during some sort of social circle related to a hobby. Friendliness is NOT the problem. People in Portland are friendly (much more so than New England in general) and open. I wouldn't say they're the most outgoing bunch, but they're nice. It's just that most of these people have established social circles and the majority have families.

The people I met who had lived in Portland for a while did like it. It's not really the type of place you can get "stuck" as there are cheaper places to live and many with more jobs out there. Because not many people are "stuck" in Portland, there are fewer people who live there that don't like it. However, I knew a LOT of people (mostly from out of state) who moved in and couldn't get out fast enough. I ended up moving because I wanted (like you) an urban lifestyle that I just couldn't get in Portland. The people who leave Portland tend to do so quickly and without wasting time because as I mentioned, it's not the type of place that you can easily get "stuck." But the people that do live there generally really like Portland. Portland's civic pride was a double-edged sword to me. On one hand, civic pride goes a good ways towards making improvements in town. Taking pride in something is usually helpful. On the other hand, it really got over the top. It seems many in Portland feel that everything about their city is extraordinarily great just because it's in or part of Portland. There was a REAL self-congratulatory attitude that was incredibly off-putting. I don't miss that aspect at all.

I think that in order to enjoy Portland you really have to find a niche. Like you noted, Portland isn't NYC or Boston so their isn't that feeling of their being something for everyone. I'd recommend Portland to someone looking to raise a family or to escape the city but still maintain SOME of the amenities they like. I'd recommend it to someone moving from a VERY rural area looking to take a stepping stone to see how they like living in a larger town (before they move to a big city), I'd recommend it to someone looking for a place to have good access to nature, or a nice little artist community.

However, I have a hard time recommending Portland to someone looking to live a more urban lifestyle. It's just not that "urban" of a place... both in the attitude of the people and the general make up of the city. If you don't want Boston or New York but want New England, both Providence and New Haven offer GREAT downtown areas and wonderful neighborhoods that are far more urban than what you'd find in Portland. There's a BIG gap between Boston or New York and Portland with literally hundreds of cities that are in between those cities in size. I could be way off the mark, but I would probably try and go a little bigger if you want a truly urban atmosphere and there are plenty of places to do that.

Don't get me wrong, Portland's a great town in many ways; but it's not for everyone. I'd come up and stay a while before making the leap. It would be horrible to arrive and realize you've made a mistake and I REALLY don't think moving to Portland is something to do if you truly want "urban" living.

[v5200]

Wow, thanks lrfox, what a FANTASTIC post!! Seriously, I could not have hoped for better info. The points you bring up are excellent food for thought... what I'm looking for is something that is perhaps more "urban" than Portland can provide realistically. I would define that as having all of the "basics" at your disposal without a car: good restaurants, grocery store, dry cleaners, movie theaters, etc etc. A thriving downtown that people actually live in, not just visit or work in. I live outside of Hartford, and I would not categorize it as having a "thriving" downtown scene- basically a ghost town after 5, and virtually no amenities that you'd want if you lived there. I was in Portland a few years back, and while I don't remember it in detail, I do remember a cool, almost kind of funky vibe that I liked a lot. Plus access to the ocean and outdoor recreation is appealing too, but from your excellent observations, I think it might be a little too small.

Ideally, I'd live to be a few hours at most from CT, so maybe that does point to Boston or NYC!

[lrfox]

You're welcome!

Hartford has gone downhill, unfortunately. Prettiest New England skyline outside of Boston and some excellent architecture, but the city has a really empty feeling. The same could be said about Springfield. Portland's downtown area is a bit more compact than Hartford's (not too much more walkable, but a bit) and is more active due to the tourism and compact nature. In that regard, I'd say Portland's a bit better.

In CT, New Haven has my favorite urban downtown area thanks in large part to Yale. In the past 5 years it's boomed to the point of being really attractive. It's a very dense and walkable downtown with all of the amenities.

Portland does have a cool, funky vibe. You weren't imagining things. In fact, when I moved there it was something that attracted me. The downtown area is very nice in Portland. And people DO live there, just not in large volumes like they do in larger cities. Portland is busy downtown during the summer due to tourism. It's a seaside tourist town in a similar fashion to Newport RI and Portsmouth NH (though Portland is a little bigger). Like those towns, when the tourist season is over, the activity significantly decreases. Also like those towns, it doesn't completely die. Downtown Portland has some nice restaurants, a small movie theater (also a small indie flick place), and grocery stores that aren't too far from downtown. The problem is that it has them in small quantities... you're options are limited.

The Car-free thing has been debated before here (search the Portland forum for more info) with great points being brought up by both sides. It's doable in Portland... I just think it's more of a hassle to do it than to not do it. In cities like Boston and NY, it's truly easier to live without a car as the subway, local rail, regional rail, international airports, bus systems, taxis, etc all allow you to travel anywhere you want to go without driving a car. It's also super expensive to drive and park in those cities so they have to be better suited for car-free living.

In Portland, it's a mixed bag. You CAN live without a car, but it's not easier to do so. In fact, it really limits you in Portland whereas in the bigger cities it almost liberates you. Like I mentioned, Portland's downtown area is small and walkable, but it's a TINY chunk of land (about 1/2 the size of Hartford's downtown). There is a bus system in town that really doesn't extend far outside the city limits at all (a little ways into Westbrook, South Portland and Falmouth... all border towns). There are only 8 lines and as you leave the Peninsula that is the center of town, they coverage is very sparse. They have rail service to Boston but it's spotty and slow (they don't run frequently either... it's a 2 hour drive that's over 3.5 hours by train many times).

Further more, Portland traffic isn't bad at all. It's relatively easy to find parking (affordable mothly rates can be had in just about any garage downtown) in a garage or any side street and it's the core of Portland is so small that it takes a matter of a few minutes to go from the center of the city to the "outskirts." The point is, you CAN live without a car, but you're limiting your mobility significantly as there's really no way to get outside the city without a car (unless you want to go to the Maine Mall or Main St. Westbrook). Right now I'm living in Boston with no car and it's just awesome. I wouldn't have even considered it in Portland is it would have been VERY difficult to get anywhere and wasn't worth the hassle.

There's no question that you're at nature's doorstep in Portland. The islands are great and the mountains are close. But if you ever want to go to the lakes or the mountains you need a car... there's no avoiding that (if you ARE looking at Boston, they have a "Ski Train" that's awesome in the winter).

Still, given the things you're looking for, I think you'd be a lot happier in a place like Providence (particularly the East Side, Downtown, or Fed. Hill), Boston, New York, or possibly even New Haven. Portland felt suffocating after a while for me as it just didn't have the things that the larger cities have that make urban living so great. The attitude isn't urban in Portland... it's a small town feel. It sure has a cool vibe, but it's a small town, everything local vibe. It's very quaint, laid back and really sort of quiet. Don't get me wrong, I love Portland, but I can't live there... it's great to visit and always will be great to visit. But I can't live there looking for an "urban" atmosphere... there just isn't one.

I may be wrong and I would suggest heading up there for a week in the winter (during the off-season) and seeing what you think. This time would give you the best perspective on what life is like in Portland NOT during the brief season where tourists abound. You may find you like it, you may find you don't. If you don't it's always a charming place to visit that's only a few hours away.

Depending on your budget for an apartment or condo, other places would make MUCH better options for urban living. Providence is similarly priced to Portland (only a little more expensive) and much more urban but still has a very cool, creative vibe. Providence has a larger downtown with more restaurants, grocery stores, shops, etc. It also has a far better transit system than Portland in RIPTA (which goes ALL OVER the state down to Newport, Bristol, etc) with Amtrak service to NYC, CT, and Boston as well as commuter rail to Boston (starting this winter, they have rail service to the airport). Providence also has some real urban neighborhoods an neighborhood centers. Nothing is cooler than the artsy vibe you get on the East Side along Thayer St (another true neighborhood center) with all the cafe's frequented by the faculty, staff and students of Brown Univ. and RISD. Then you can head across town to Federal Hill and feel like you're in Old-World Italy (it's a more in-tact little Italy than Boston's North End). Downtown is compact with a big movie theater, Imax theater, many small live-performance venues (Strand, Trinity Rep, Prov. Performing Arts, etc). Providence is a great place to get the urban atmosphere without the cost of Boston or New York...second only to Boston in New England, really.

If you can afford it go for New York or Boston. Outside of Chicago, DC, or San Francisco, no other cities in the U.S. offer the urban lifestyle to the degree that those two cities do. It's pricey, but if car-free is what you want, it's hard to find a better place to do it than either of those cities (and New York is bounds above Boston).

[v5200]

Yeah , Hartford is kind of a sad story... looked like it was going to come back in the mid -late 80s, but never did. Providence is an interesting suggestion that I haven't considered... I will definitely check it out! Thanks again for your great, informative feedback.

[lrfox]

No Problem. It's interesting... in another urban planning forum yesterday I was discussing Hartford with a bunch of people. All of them (mostly natives) had the same sentiments that you do. It is sad.

[doghead]

Irfox, you are really incredibly articulate about places in which you have lived, especially Portland. Very informative and very helpful. BTW, do you know if many people commute between New Haven and NYC? Thanks.

[lrfox]

Originally Posted by doghead

Irfox, you are really incredibly articulate about places in which you have lived, especially Portland. Very informative and very helpful. BTW, do you know if many people commute between New Haven and NYC? Thanks.

Thanks for the compliment! I try to be thorough and mix in as much fact as I can with my opinion for comparison's sake.

A good deal of people commute between New Haven and NYC. Not only does New Haven have the Amtrak (both Acela Express and regional trains) service to Penn Station out of their beautiful Union Station, but they have local commuter trains (Metro North Railroad) to Grand Central Terminal as well. It's about a 1.5 hour ride which is a lengthy commute for most of us, but in metro New York, that's hardly unusual or unreasonable. There's also Bus service as well as I-95 or the Merrit Parkway (one of my favorite roads in the country). It's very common for people to commute regularly from New Haven. I've actually even heard rumors that the MTA (New York's Metropolitan Transit Authority) is considering running commuter buses as far up as Hartford in the near future.

Personally, I don't know if I could commute 3 hours daily... but somehow people in New Haven do it.

New Haven is relatively affordable too (again with comparison to NYC) so it's a great option for people who want to live in an Urban environment but can't afford $2,000/mo for a 450sq ft. studio in Manhattan. Personally, I consider it the real boundary line for "Metro NYC"... Anything Southwest of New Haven towards NYC is really either an urban or suburban 'burb of New York while it gets pretty rural North and East of New Haven.

[Brave Stranger]

Originally Posted by lrfox

Well, what exactly do you mean, "city" atmosphere? Also, where in CT are you coming from? The reason I ask, is how, "city" Portland feels will probably be dependent on what you're used to. What about Portland attracted you to it?

Portland is the largest city in Maine so to those who've spent their entire lives in Maine it is THE city. However, Portland is still really small when viewed relative to the rest of the country. You say you know it's not Boston and New York, and it's a good thing you don't have those expectations as they can lead to disappointment if you went in with them. Portland has a population of around 63,000. That's small. In fact, On a nationwide scale, only THREE states do not contain a city larger than Portland Maine-- Wyoming, Vermont, and West Virginia-- and Charlseton, WV isn't only slightly smaller than Portland. Other than that, every other state has at least ONE city (often quite a bit more) that is larger than Portland.

Before I lived in Portland, I lived in Providence, Washington DC and metro Boston. As you mentioned, Portland isn't like Boston (and thus not like Washington as it's larger too), but Providence even dwarfs it (about 3x the size of Portland). To me, Portland felt like more of a mid-size town than it did an urban environment.

Portland is "urban" in that it's a city. It's the cultural and economic capital of Maine. However, the attitude is different. It's very laid back (again leading to that town-like atmosphere) and easy going. It lacks the flashiness of most urban areas. Portland has some great restaurants, but you won't find the designer-made chic restaurants that have dress codes in Portland; rather everything is very causual and simple. Same goes for the nightlife. Portland doesn't have nightclubs or chic lounges, it has laid back pubs and sports-style bars much like you'd find in many seaside towns. There isn't a real "urban" culture in Portland.

Portland is minimally urban in setup too. For a Northeastern city, Portland is relatively lower density. In fact, much of the city itself is suburban (detached homes, yards, etc) and even borderline rural near the periphery. Portland's downtown is very nice and walkable, but it's a pretty small area. It's where the bulk of everything (restaurants, bars, shops, etc) are and it's absolutely active. It's made up of two districts... The "Old Port" which is literally the old port area of town and that's a handful of blocks between Congress Street and Commercial/the Waterfront. Then you have what is referred to as the Arts District which is essentially from Monument Square on Congress street to the Congress Street intersection with High Street. This is "downtown Portland" and it's very walkable. Like any town, it's quieter on the weekends and after work hours during the week. Given that tourism is Portland's primary economy, it is notably quiet during the winter and spring, but it's not "dead." There are plenty of people who live and work there year round as it's still the economic and cultural hub of Maine.

There are rentals and condos in many of the nice older buildings throughout downtown and they can be had at reasonable prices. In Maine, people generally value a home and a yard and Portland's no different. The bulk of people choose to live outside the core of town. The residential areas that surround Portland's downtown core will be where you find the most "urban" living options... wall-to-wall homes. These neighborhoods are The West End, East End, Parkside and Bayside. Bayside is ugly, but it's the closest to the grocery stores. It's parking lot laden and hard to call "urban." East and West Ends are very nice. Both are located on elevated land offering great views. Combine that with the historic housing stocks, and you have nice residential neighborhoods. You can walk downtown easily from either one. A good chunk of the West End is more suburban (bits of the East End are too) than urban, but it's older suburban which is still pretty walkable (no cul-de-sacs this close to downtown). Parkside is located between Deerking Oaks Park and Congress Street. It's nice... there are many older homes and rentals here and it's very close to downtown.

"Livability" is tough to define too. The neighborhoods I listed are all livable. Portland is a very safe city and there is no "bad area" of town. Bayside is, like I said, ugly, but it's not a terrible place. Grant Street is located in Parkside. This street has a slightly negative reputation for some reason I can't put my finger on, but it's not bad at all. In fact, there are some very nice properties for rent on it and it's very family oriented. Portland isn't ethnic at all at over 91% non-hispanic white. However, it's accepting of all races and that 9% of non-whites are well represented and spread throughout the city. There are no "ethnic" neighborhoods.

One of the biggest things that made Portland feel less than urban to me was it's complete lack of neighborhood centers. Even small cities all over have commercial centers in the middle of neighborhoods outside of the central core. These neighborhood centers contain restaurants, shops, a bar or two, etc (acting essentially as a "downtown" for a neighborhood). Boston is replite with them (Roslindale, Harvard, Porter, Davis, Coolidge Corner, etc) as are most major cities. Providence has tons (Thayer/College Hill, Fed. Hill, Wayland Sq., Fox Point, etc). Portland has none. Downtown Portland is THE commercial district for the entire city. There are some shops on some streets (i.e. on Stevens ave or at Woodfords Corners) but they're hardly as walkable, as numerous, and as varied as typical neighborhood centers (it's REALLY a stretch to call these areas, "neighborhood centers"). I think neighborhood centers are the behind-the-scenes lifeblood of cities and Portland completely lacks that aspect of "urban" life.

As far as the "scene" goes, I can only offer so much perspective as we're at different stages of life. In general, I've heard the singles-scene as being "so-so" in Portland. Portland's good schools, relative affordability, and low crime as well as its mostly suburban make up make it a VERY family oriented town. Also, since it's largest industry is tourism, there aren't really an abundance of single professionals around. Almost anyone I knew over age 35 and single in Portland required help from eHarmony or a similar service. The bar scene is pretty weak and MOSTLY dominated by people in their 20s. In order to have success, you'd probably have to get lucky at work or during some sort of social circle related to a hobby. Friendliness is NOT the problem. People in Portland are friendly (much more so than New England in general) and open. I wouldn't say they're the most outgoing bunch, but they're nice. It's just that most of these people have established social circles and the majority have families.

The people I met who had lived in Portland for a while did like it. It's not really the type of place you can get "stuck" as there are cheaper places to live and many with more jobs out there. Because not many people are "stuck" in Portland, there are fewer people who live there that don't like it. However, I knew a LOT of people (mostly from out of state) who moved in and couldn't get out fast enough. I ended up moving because I wanted (like you) an urban lifestyle that I just couldn't get in Portland. The people who leave Portland tend to do so quickly and without wasting time because as I mentioned, it's not the type of place that you can easily get "stuck." But the people that do live there generally really like Portland. Portland's civic pride was a double-edged sword to me. On one hand, civic pride goes a good ways towards making improvements in town. Taking pride in something is usually helpful. On the other hand, it really got over the top. It seems many in Portland feel that everything about their city is extraordinarily great just because it's in or part of Portland. There was a REAL self-congratulatory attitude that was incredibly off-putting. I don't miss that aspect at all.

I think that in order to enjoy Portland you really have to find a niche. Like you noted, Portland isn't NYC or Boston so their isn't that feeling of their being something for everyone. I'd recommend Portland to someone looking to raise a family or to escape the city but still maintain SOME of the amenities they like. I'd recommend it to someone moving from a VERY rural area looking to take a stepping stone to see how they like living in a larger town (before they move to a big city), I'd recommend it to someone looking for a place to have good access to nature, or a nice little artist community.

However, I have a hard time recommending Portland to someone looking to live a more urban lifestyle. It's just not that "urban" of a place... both in the attitude of the people and the general make up of the city. If you don't want Boston or New York but want New England, both Providence and New Haven offer GREAT downtown areas and wonderful neighborhoods that are far more urban than what you'd find in Portland. There's a BIG gap between Boston or New York and Portland with literally hundreds of cities that are in between those cities in size. I could be way off the mark, but I would probably try and go a little bigger if you want a truly urban atmosphere and there are plenty of places to do that.

Don't get me wrong, Portland's a great town in many ways; but it's not for everyone. I'd come up and stay a while before making the leap. It would be horrible to arrive and realize you've made a mistake and I REALLY don't think moving to Portland is something to do if you truly want "urban" living.

This is one of the most thoughtful, insightful posts I have ever seen on CD. You have a gift