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First of all, I agree with a number of the reasons that people are protesting about. However, I'm also wondering how many of the protestors have looked at themselves to see if perhaps they are one of the myriad roots of the economic problem facing themselves and this country?
For decades, Americans have generally been living above their means and on credit - buying things like smart phones, Starbucks lattes, X-boxes, Blazers tickets, vacations, new cars, and homes that were frankly beyond them. As a society, we have delightedly embraced an "I want it NOW, so forget saving, I'll pay for it later" attitude, which was NOT shared by the generations before us. Because of this attitude, when hard times hit, familiy budgets are not equipped to handle it.
So while the fat cats on Wall Street certainly have something to do with this economic meltodwn, I believe blame is a two way street and some should be shared by those (including myself on many occasions) who have lived beyond their means and forsaken savings in good times. Our credit-mad lifestyles and "must have it now" attitudes are definitely a significant reason why the middle class is falling apart.
So far, though, I haven't seen any of these protests realize that they might be part of the problem.
PS: I realize not all people live beyond their means, but let's be frank, most of us do, if even to smaller degrees & fewer instances.
Self hatred is a terrible thing. The rest of the world has been wondering why it took this long for Americans to take to the streets. Frankly it is because of the blame the victim mentality that pervades the middle class. Naturally this has interesting results when the victim is oneself. Americans have been going off to die quietly and with dignity (or not) by the millions... for years... after giving everything to some Fortune 500 that discards them like a used Kleenex at age 50, or 55... or 60. What or who is going to hire a 50 year old? Especially when your former employer is ready to damn you with faint praise when the inevitable calls come in from prospective employers.
A few million Americans getting a little over their heads in debt did not bring down the largest economy in the free world. Solyndra likely will have a bigger impact on society than someone, even hundreds of someones who are at this very moment having their cars reposseed. But you are right. Consumer electronics, jewelry, cars (new, or used!), cell phones or homes are all luxuries. No one needs these things and unless one earns six figures or better it will require debt to obtain them. Thats why I don't have any luxuries whatsoever. I live within my means and so does my SO. So what. I can't see that it has changed the world for the better. There are millions upon millions of Americans living like me and even closer to the edge than me, if that's possible.
Target... Walmart... Amazon... etc. They no longer care whether you can afford their products anymore... GM, Chrysler... they're not dumb, they saw the falterings in their American sales as one by one and ten by ten, former middle class Americans were sent off into that good night by their employers to... ... whatever. American businesses know they can no longer rely on American consumers so they are marketing their wares abroad. GM now sells more cars in China than in the U.S. Target makes as much or more from investors foreign and domestic than walk-in consumers. That's why we must protest. As the unemployment rate rises so do corporate profits. American business is doing better than ever while American workers haven't been this hard hit since the 1980's.
It's not our fault. Americans were given credit cards. Begged to use them. At my rented house, we probably have $25,000.00 of potential credit between us. Every day new offers come in the mail. But Americans have wised up in much the way the at risk communities responded to the HIV crisis. They will be charging us to use debit cards now, since fewer are running credit tabs. It's not our fault. We must stop blaming ourselves and get angry at the real enemy. Support Our Protesters.
You (and a lot of Americans frankly) don't quite understand the entire supply chain that is used to make sneakers, automobiles, TV's, iPhones, etc. That and Nike never had factories on American soil in the first place, although they do have R&D manufacturing capabilities at WHQ.
Even if the workers in China/Taiwan/Indonesia made American wages, there are still a lot more hidden costs that you're not seeing.
I'm working off memory here, but Nike has something like a dozen factories who only make shoes. There is another dozen for apparel, and a couple for specialized products. This doesn't include the dozens, possibly hundreds of factories that produce the individual components. Or the companies involved in the creation of the raw materials to build the individual components.
For sake of simplicity, assume that each factory costs $10 Million to build in Asia. The same factory is going to cost $50 Million in the United States. Then there are the associated upkeep and upgrade costs for new technologies. About a quarter million a year in Asia, but easily two or three million a year in the US.
So all the associated costs together would up the price even more. You also need to think about shipping costs - higher in the US then Asia. Add in the fact that Asia is Nike's next big market, it only makes sense to keep the products in Asia.
This is why the American Economy is destined to be tied with the global economy for the foreseeable future. There are companies like Toyota that do final assembly in the US, but on the consumer good level it doesn't make sense for the most part, although I'd really like to see a company or two try.
I understand SCM - supply chain management - just fine. In all that you said, what's the underlying cost of everything? Labor. Cost to extract raw materials from good old mother nature, cost to refine the raw resources into usable material, cost to build/assemble the material into a finished product, cost to support for the products, cost of transporting materials/goods between every stage, and cost of management for the operations at every single stage. Even in your example of setting up a factory, where do steel comes from? IIRC, we used to take pride in American steel. What happened to it? Simple economic principle supply and demand. How can you supply if no demand. What about other costs of building the factory? What of construction workers potentially buying shoes for the family? I can elaborate at every facet of every single stage in the SCM but it comes to the same: cost of labor. No other country in the world understands that better than Japan. What raw resources do you think Japan can gather on their land? Look at what they manage to produced... high quality electronics, used to be very high quality to now a little above average quality cars. Those products are not cheap in price either. Only until 1982, did the some of the cars are assembled/made in the USA. Because they know if the consumers don't have the money to buy their vehicles, they wouldn't make money. They could have it assembled/manufactured in Mexico where the cost of labor is a LOT cheaper yet they chose USA. It is to provide some of the consumers with income. We could of have done something similar in the USA. Import what's necessary, lacking in the USA, to make high quality products for export. In those countries where the labor is outsourced to, do you think they could afford what we or any other developed countries manufactured/produced? How many Chinese, in China, do you think could afford the goods produced in the USA at their lower income earnings? What about India where a decent chunk of IT jobs gone there? What have Indians bought that's made in the USA to offset trade (both in products and services)? I don't mean that we should practice isolationism entirely but exercising more of it is not so bad.
EDIT: In your apartment/house, how many things that you own are 'Made in ' not the USA? In those countries where the goods were made, what's the percentage of the population that can afford goods made in other developed countries. I'm fine with 'Made in China' for the Chinese there to consume. But I do have a problem with 'Made in China' for the USA to consume. Shall we go have a look to see how many Nike shoes are made in China being sold in the US? ... lol Also, what of possible cheap imitations made in China being sold in the US? How many legal actions against imitators have you heard that are successful?
Last edited by _TwentyTwenty_; 10-13-2011 at 05:35 AM..
Look at page 3, 5, 16 and 17. That's real SCM at work to satisfy the supply and demand. Your explanation of moving a factory to China to solve SCM problem and the 'hidden costs' associated with it doesn't cut it. I used to work in logistics for a manufacturing/distribution company in early 90s and practiced the proven concept "zero inventory". It may be termed differently now. With more than 15 years later and Nike (or any other large company) can't get that right?
How many Chinese, in China, do you think could afford the goods produced in the USA at their lower income earnings? What about India where a decent chunk of IT jobs gone there? What have Indians bought that's made in the USA to offset trade (both in products and services)? I don't mean that we should practice isolationism entirely but exercising more of it is not so bad.
What goods are still produced in the US that could compete with locally produced goods in either country?
The only thing the US can produce is high quality goods. Walmart specifically, but Target, K-Mart, and all the other nation wide chains have conditions the current generation of Americans that cheaper is better.
This is why I believe Apple is so successful - the perception of quality it is there above and beyond any competitors products. Americans want to buy quality and are getting tired of buying junk But Apple is one of a very small handful of non-Niche companies in the US that does this.
This is also why small family owned dining establishments are becoming more popular - the perception of quality over the big chains.
I can hope that companies in other industries take note and start bringing manufacturing jobs back. I for one, want to buy clothes that last more then a year. I want to buy a car or electronics that don't break down the day after the warranty expires. I want good quality furniture made of solid wood, built by hand that I can pass down to my grand children.
Yes, cheaper is better. Americans want to buy quality? They're buying way too much. I hope this economy goes to hell and people learn to live without "buying"
What goods are still produced in the US that could compete with locally produced goods in either country?
The only thing the US can produce is high quality goods. Walmart specifically, but Target, K-Mart, and all the other nation wide chains have conditions the current generation of Americans that cheaper is better.
This is why I believe Apple is so successful - the perception of quality it is there above and beyond any competitors products. Americans want to buy quality and are getting tired of buying junk But Apple is one of a very small handful of non-Niche companies in the US that does this.
This is also why small family owned dining establishments are becoming more popular - the perception of quality over the big chains.
I can hope that companies in other industries take note and start bringing manufacturing jobs back. I for one, want to buy clothes that last more then a year. I want to buy a car or electronics that don't break down the day after the warranty expires. I want good quality furniture made of solid wood, built by hand that I can pass down to my grand children.
Your desires are fine for you, but why must everyone conform to what your wants?
I may only need a coffee maker to last 24 months and am happy to discard it for a new one if it only cost me $23 bucks. If you desire a $200 coffee maker that lasts 10 years - go buy it. But why must everyone conform to that model?
This is my problem with this entire movement and thought process.
I have spent my entire career (almost 30 yrs) in consumer appliances. All of our R&D $ is spent trying to design and develop products customers want and would be willing to pay for and we can still make a profit. Competition is brutal, but good for all - especially the consumer.
Despite the repeated lie in these threads, companies cannot "force" anyone to buy products/services. This is the fallacy of this entire movement.
I truly believe these fictitious arguments are put forth by this class warfare president to divert attention away from his failing presidency.
Be careful to not fall into a mob mentality - Some of the comments from the protestors are becoming very similiar to the words of the German population in the 30's who bought into Hilters crap the the practioners of the Jewish religon were the source of problem. (ie: faceless Wallstreet "fatcats" and banks are the problem.)
Diverting attention to fake issues is a common trait amongst people in power.
Regarding Portland - I suspect by end of next week, this rally will start to wind down due to exhaustion.
Your desires are fine for you, but why must everyone conform to what your wants?
I may only need a coffee maker to last 24 months and am happy to discard it for a new one if it only cost me $23 bucks. If you desire a $200 coffee maker that lasts 10 years - go buy it. But why must everyone conform to that model?
This is my problem with this entire movement and thought process.
Please do not put words in my mouth. If you do not understand what I said and need clarification, I'll be glad to provide it.
I may only need a coffee maker to last 24 months and am happy to discard it for a new one if it only cost me $23 bucks. If you desire a $200 coffee maker that lasts 10 years - go buy it. But why must everyone conform to that model?
Are you telling me that you honestly believe planet Earth has unlimited space for landfills?
Are you telling me that I should not be pretty darn upset and concerned about filling up said landfills with disposable junk that was deliberately designed from the very beginning to be disposable junk?
Wow!
Quote:
Originally Posted by ccjarider
All of our R&D $ is spent trying to design and develop products customers want and would be willing to pay for and we can still make a profit. Competition is brutal, but good for all - especially the consumer.
Correction: All of your R&D is spent trying to design and develop products that have the maximum amount of built-in obsolescence just short of having tons of consumers complain about them, thereby maximizing profits. And yes, this is great for you and your employer, but bad for the Earth, and ultimately everyone.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ccjarider
I truly believe these fictitious arguments are put forth by this class warfare president to divert attention away from his failing presidency.
Name one President that did not engage in class warfare to some extent. And by the way, all presidencies over the past 45 years have failed if you compare what was promised before election and what was actually accomplished after election.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ccjarider
Be careful to not fall into a mob mentality - Some of the comments from the protestors are becoming very similiar to the words of the German population in the 30's who bought into Hilters crap the the practioners of the Jewish religon were the source of problem. (ie: faceless Wallstreet "fatcats" and banks are the problem.)
So now you are going to draw a parallel between the innocence of Jews (including babies and children) who were gassed in concentration camps to the innocence of wallstreet fatcats and bankers who are being criticized for being dishonest and fiscally abusive??? You seriously need to get on your meds, dude.
However, thanks for raising this issue, because it reminded me to point out that Bush did the same darn thing with his "War on Terror", declaring a state of emergency/war just so he had the power to cram through the "Patriot Act" in the middle of the night, and engage the US in illegal wars so his cronies could make a fortune.
Incidentally, the so-called "Patriot Act" (perhaps the biggest misnomer in history) did more to dismantle the US Constitution than all the acts preceding it combined.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ccjarider
Diverting attention to fake issues is a common trait amongst people in power.
Exactly. And it has been this way for both Republicans and Democrats, both of whom are really only concerned about their own personal self-preservation and best interests. If you think Republicans give any more of a crap about this country than the Democrats, you need to go do some reading. Both parties are corrupt to the CORE!
Quickstudy:
Me thinks you protest too much, therefore you must believe a little of what I state.
Is there any element of human existance that you appreciate or enjoy?
It is clear that literally every cause du jour drives you insane.
Maybe you need to come to Oregon, get your medical marijuana card and chill out a little, then you will not feel that literally every element of human existance stinks so much.
I am thinking you must live alone because seriously-you are a huge downer.
As you brought up a new issue - garbage, I wil answer.
Yes, the planet has millions of acres available for garbage and waste manamgement creates jobs.
Another red herring you choose to throw out there.
Bring on the next please.
Sorry to all other readers - this thread is no longer about Portland and I am partially to blame for that.
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