What is up with towns shutting down because a tiny bit of snow? (Portland: sales, sales tax)

[Metlakatla]

Originally Posted by Isotope-C14

Yes, I'm sure salting once or twice a year will result in the absolute destruction of the salmon spawning habitat. Since salmon never spend time in salt water, they will get confused on which way the ocean is and get lost.



Lulz

Actually it can interfere with the spawning process. Salmon spawn in fresh water.

[Isotope-C14]

Originally Posted by Metlakatla

Actually it can interfere with the spawning process. Salmon spawn in fresh water.

Perhaps you missed the sarcasm point about the salt instantly finding its way into the river, and increasing the salinity...

I hope you can fathom the depth and rate of the water moving through the Willamette through the course of a single day, vs. the amount of salt required to increase the salinity by 0.1%.

Though, from what I experienced in the Pac-NW, I guess I shouldn't be surprised, after all, one of the locals told me that the air was 100% Oxygen.

[hamellr]

Originally Posted by Isotope-C14

Perhaps you missed the sarcasm point about the salt instantly finding its way into the river, and increasing the salinity...

I hope you can fathom the depth and rate of the water moving through the Willamette through the course of a single day, vs. the amount of salt required to increase the salinity by 0.1%.

Though, from what I experienced in the Pac-NW, I guess I shouldn't be surprised, after all, one of the locals told me that the air was 100% Oxygen.

There are a few studies dating from the 1960's that prompted the change. That was back when the state was heavily Conservative.

Several well known salmon rivers like Rogue were devastated. They actually had to close the river to fishing for a few years (my grandfather complained about that well into the 1980's.) The year after salting was stopped the fish population exploded and fishing has been opened since then.

[Metlakatla]

No, I didn't "miss" the sarcasm but chose to ignore it; there's a lot of truth in the old saying that sarcasm is the lowest form of humor. Salmon spawn upriver, by the way, in places quite similar to the fork of the Willamette that I can see right now out of my living room window. It's quite different that the wide river that runs through the Willamette Valley. We get significant snowfall here. Salting the roads here would not result in a slow, imperceptible infusion of salt into the rivers. The snow doesn't melt on a daily basis up here where the salmon come to spawn. Road salt also can contain toxins such as arsenic, which can be fatal to salmon fry and which is actually a bigger danger to the runs than salt residue present in spawning grounds. It can also break down into compounds like hydrogen cyanide, so fathom that. Incidentally, Oregon hasn't done the greatest job of protecting the health of its various salmon fisheries so I'd have to disagree with your claim about PNW residents claiming that the air is pure oxygen.

Glad you got out, though; it does rather sound like the PNW wasn't quite your cup of tea.

[Isotope-C14]

Originally Posted by Metlakatla

No, I didn't "miss" the sarcasm but chose to ignore it; there's a lot of truth in the old saying that sarcasm is the lowest form of humor. Salmon spawn upriver, by the way, in places quite similar to the fork of the Willamette that I can see right now out of my living room window. It's quite different that the wide river that runs through the Willamette Valley. We get significant snowfall here. Salting the roads here would not result in a slow, imperceptible infusion of salt into the rivers. The snow doesn't melt on a daily basis up here where the salmon come to spawn. Road salt also can contain toxins such as arsenic, which can be fatal to salmon fry and which is actually a bigger danger to the runs than salt residue present in spawning grounds. It can also break down into compounds like hydrogen cyanide, so fathom that. Incidentally, Oregon hasn't done the greatest job of protecting the health of its various salmon fisheries so I'd have to disagree with your claim about PNW residents claiming that the air is pure oxygen.

Glad you got out, though; it does rather sound like the PNW wasn't quite your cup of tea.

I've never heard that sarcasm is the lowest form of humor. Perhaps you should call up Steven Colbert and John Stewart and let them know that they are not funny.

Can you explain to me how CaCl2 transmutes into HCN? I mean really, the highest atomic wight in the latter is 14, the lowest in the former in 35, and none of them have same elements. FYI one of the treatments for bio-remediation of HCN contamination is Cl2...

Can you explain to me, how say a 1% contamination of As in road salt (a totally illegal amount), by wt, would result in a significant increase in the As concentration in the watershed? I'm dying to understand this miracle of stoichiometry.

May I ask where you got your science degree? I'm professionally curious.

Originally Posted by Hamellr

There are a few studies dating from the 1960's that prompted the change. That was back when the state was heavily Conservative.

Several well known salmon rivers like Rogue were devastated. They actually had to close the river to fishing for a few years (my grandfather complained about that well into the 1980's.) The year after salting was stopped the fish population exploded and fishing has been opened since then.

Every time I was out fishing there, an old person that I ran into would have a different reason why overfishing was caused by some external source. I have heard everything from dams, salt, radiation and someone even said it was due to solar flares. Frankly unless someone can prove that Oregon rivers just weren't overfished, or just a little less likely, due to fry death to introduced species or disease, I likely won't be sold on non-scientific information.

While I was there in paradise one of your own large land owners who liked to fish the Rogue, caught a couple of native steelhead and cooked em up. And I quote "I know they are endangered but who gives a %#!$, they sure are good eatin". Perhaps this is what is killing the fish?

[Metlakatla]

Sigh. I won't spend my time arguing the differences between satire and sarcasm with you. I wouldn't put yourself on the level of those you mentioned, though.

I don't believe I claimed that CaCl2 can break down into hydrogen cyanide...did you think that road salt contains only that? It's the sodium ferrocyanide that can generate HCN.

Of course it was overfishing for the most part (with the dams coming in a close second), but poor fisheries management had a bit more to do with that than the random old person cooking up illicit steelhead. Did you enjoy the meal, by the way?

Anyway, you can keep the road salt in Chicago...we prefer to keep our water clean here.

[ukiyo-e]

Originally Posted by Minervah

I don't think you will still find it comical after living through a few winters here though.

Ok, I live up in NW WA, not PDX, but we're getting the same storm, and the same issues with ice. I grew up and lived on the east coast with snowy winters for 30 years and was never as cautious and concerned about driving in snow as I am in the PNW, because of what one earlier poster mentioned. The ground is warmer, the snow melts as cars drive over it, it freezes into a thin layer of ice, and whoosh - accidents everywhere. If I have to drive in snow, I'll take east coast and midwest snow any day over PNW snow.

[EnricoV]

Originally Posted by Isotope-C14

Double lulz, next apologist?

Smug is so unattractive.

Just because you state something as though you are the ultimate authority, really has very little bearing on whether you are or not. I'm glad to hear that there is only one, very specific cause, for the fish in the great lakes being inedible. Funny, you'd think that if it was something so simple as eliminating one cause would be something they'd do.

As for the automobile part, I really don't care what kind of a beater you, or anyone (including myself) drives. And I'm female ... I don't have your "size" issues. I only see that as a symptom. If there's this visible sign it's doing that to the cars, what's it doing to things I can't see the immediate effect upon.

[hamellr]

@Isotop-C14 Here is some light reading for you:

Stormwater | Environmental Impacts of Road Salt and Alternatives in New York

Road Salt Education Program - Minnesota Pollution Control Agency

Study: Road salt harming many urban streams - US news - Environment - msnbc.com

Road Salt is Affecting Aquatic Life And Drinking Water Across North America : TreeHugger

Press Release: Two Recent Studies Confirm Road Salt Damage to Drinking Water, Vegetation & Wildlife - One Year after Adirondack Council Recommends "Low Sodium Diet" for Park Roads Paul Smith’s College/Adk Action.org and University of Maine Reach (http://www.adirondackcouncil.org/RoadSaltStudies310pr.html - broken link)

http://streams.osu.edu/NPSPapers/Cooper_Paper.pdf

<title>Meltdown: Road Salt in Wingra Watershed

http://www.rebuildingi93.com/documen...Salt%20Use.pdf

http://wren.palwv.org/documents/Impe...yinstreams.pdf

Research Explores Impact of Road Salt | Rider University

If it's so OK and has minimal impact, why are so many groups and agencies across the Northern US interested in decreasing it's use?

[Isotope-C14]

Originally Posted by EnricoV

Smug is so unattractive.

Just because you state something as though you are the ultimate authority, really has very little bearing on whether you are or not. I'm glad to hear that there is only one, very specific cause, for the fish in the great lakes being inedible. Funny, you'd think that if it was something so simple as eliminating one cause would be something they'd do.

As for the automobile part, I really don't care what kind of a beater you, or anyone (including myself) drives. And I'm female ... I don't have your "size" issues. I only see that as a symptom. If there's this visible sign it's doing that to the cars, what's it doing to things I can't see the immediate effect upon.

The fish in the great lakes and surrounding waters ARE NOT inedible. Did anyone bother to look at the page? The summary is, don't eat carp, or really old lake trout. That doesn't include Asian carp, an introduced species which apparently is very tasty. You can even eat them when they grow larger than 45lbs.

Yeah, I ain't an authority on these issues, since years of environmental science makes you unqualified, but perhaps you and Metlakatla will click the link below and get a real clear idea on how "clean" your water is. To be honest, your local regulations make Illinois mercury advisories look silly and a little over-cautious.

Fish Consumption | Recreation

Are you made of metal? Or are you made of mostly salt water? I'm reasonably certain that if you broke down all the bonds holding your organic molecules together in a car, that you would rust the bottom out too. Quick, panic you are made of metal toxins! Save the cars!

Can anyone explain to me why is it that it seems that there is a disproportionate number of voices from the paranoid and ignorant side of biology and chemistry on the west coast? Someone says "Mercury!" and suddenly all vaccines are poison. Is it that the science teachers are just that awful there?

BTW: I didn't eat the native steelhead. I was busy pouring road salt into the stream to try chelation therapy on your little mercury problem. A naturopath said it would work.