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Old 02-11-2012, 02:54 PM
 
Location: Nutmeg State
1,176 posts, read 2,554,645 times
Reputation: 639

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Granted this is our neighbors to the North, but I wouldn't guess that Portland's numbers are drastically different.


We All Pay For The Roads | PubliCola

I also don't think you're thinking of the society biases we have towards automobiles. Free street parking, which is ample all over the country (and for sure in Pdx). Where else in society are private citizens allowed to park their private property on public land (streets). The Occupy movement were kicked out when they tried to park their bodies on public land, why are cars so different?
How about the wear that studded tires put on the streets, wear that ODOT has admitted they don't have the money to fix. I won't even get into the argument about how the gas tax has lagged behind the times, and hasn't covered inflation in the last 20 years. What about the environmental impact, which autos have gotten a completely free pass on for years.

I agree I was maybe a little liberal with my wording, but the point remains that autos are not paying for all their own costs/infrastructure (even you admit that). I appreciate your tone, and may have stretched the truth a bit, but I think the fact remains that transit benefits everyone (even the drivers who aren't using it and may be pay for a little of it), and it's something that has been systematically dismantled and biased against in this country (remember the dismemberment of the old street car industry across this country).
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Old 02-11-2012, 05:02 PM
 
Location: Pacific NW
6,413 posts, read 12,104,782 times
Reputation: 5860
Just to clear up one point you made: Cars are not allowed to park themselves on public property any more than people are. It is illegal to leave a car parked on the street for more than 24 hours.

And a "completely free pass" ... not even close to true. Just as transit riders don't pay the full price for the ride, nor do drivers. Society has agreed that those things are important enough for their costs to be subsidized with other funds.
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Old 02-11-2012, 05:34 PM
 
Location: Portland, Oregon
46,001 posts, read 35,048,869 times
Reputation: 7875
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Cactus Leaguer View Post
"While I am at it?" I wasn't the one who made the original claim, it was davemess10 who said:



That's a pretty ambitious claim (and I've still seen nothing to back it up). The most recent discussion I had on this topic was with a former Trimet administrator who gave me those numbers. Looks like others have posted the Trimet budget, but I did a quick Google search and tried to find an even-handed report and came up with this:

Are Roads and Highways Subsidized ?

I'm not trying to argue this one way or another, it's been argued to death elsewhere and there are other factors to consider besides the direct subsidy. But distorting facts (if they are indeed distorted) isn't helpful to the discussion, so that's why I asked for clarification (and I didn't outright say he was wrong, I worded my reply very carefully and, I thought, politely).
I am sorry, I could of sworn you had two percentage numbers that you were stating and i was curious where they came from. I guess you didn't say 70% comes from drivers when paying for auto infrastructures, and only 20% comes from users that pay for public transportation. I figured it you were asking someone else to back up their numbers, that it only be fair that you back up yours. Nothing to get mad about, just an honest question.

If I started throwing out percentages, I am sure you would want me to prove them too, besides did you know 79% of all percentages are made up?
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Old 02-11-2012, 09:03 PM
 
Location: Tualatin, Oregon
682 posts, read 1,573,620 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by urbanlife78 View Post
I am sorry, I could of sworn you had two percentage numbers that you were stating and i was curious where they came from. I guess you didn't say 70% comes from drivers when paying for auto infrastructures, and only 20% comes from users that pay for public transportation. I figured it you were asking someone else to back up their numbers, that it only be fair that you back up yours. Nothing to get mad about, just an honest question.

If I started throwing out percentages, I am sure you would want me to prove them too, besides did you know 79% of all percentages are made up?
I wasn't reacting to your request for support on the percentages, I was reacting to the "while you're at it..." preceding your request. davemess made the original claim of equal subsidization, I was asking for a reference. Why would you assume that I am mad about anything?
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Old 02-11-2012, 10:32 PM
 
Location: Houston
1,257 posts, read 2,644,046 times
Reputation: 1236
Quote:
Originally Posted by Leisesturm View Post
Of course mass transportation is subsidized. Heavily. Even in NYC with a ridership of millions... per day!... fares do not cover the costs without subsidy. And? When it is fully grasped just how much of an advantage it is to have a transit system so well funded that people will actually use it it will be funded even more. One day, mass transit will be FREE, or nearly so. There is no earthly reason why that premise is far fetched.

H
Yes someday everything will be free and no one will have to pay for anything or even work. Pass me some of the Kool-aid please, I need a break from reality.
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Old 02-11-2012, 10:50 PM
 
Location: Portland, Oregon
46,001 posts, read 35,048,869 times
Reputation: 7875
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Cactus Leaguer View Post
I wasn't reacting to your request for support on the percentages, I was reacting to the "while you're at it..." preceding your request. davemess made the original claim of equal subsidization, I was asking for a reference. Why would you assume that I am mad about anything?
You still haven't backed up your own statical you were using. So the "while you're at it" meant just that. I want to know where you got your statistics from as much as you want to know davemess's claim. I really want to read the information from both of you.

So if you could post your statistical claims I would appreciate that.
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Old 02-12-2012, 12:11 AM
 
Location: Portland, OR
9,855 posts, read 11,887,293 times
Reputation: 10027
Quote:
Originally Posted by Squidlo View Post
Yes someday everything will be free and no one will have to pay for anything or even work. Pass me some of the Kool-aid please, I need a break from reality.
I have decided that it is your heart that is small and not your mind that you can't grasp the concept of free mass transit for Portland residents. A number of cities around the world have free mass transit systems and several of them are world class, in size, scope and quality of service. A number of cities around the U.S. have zero fare transit systems but they are not extensive systems by any means.

There remains a huge disconnect between the perception of those who still have work and the reality faced by many, that there is a distinct lack of opportunity for work in our land. "By the sweat of your brow shall ye eat bread or ride upon the MAX to haggle with the merchants at the Winco". Mass transit is the means by which the working poor get to work. The working poor do most of the important work in a city. But whether your job is white collar, blue collar or striped collar, a ride on MAX or on the bus should be free in a city where there is a 10% state income tax. It's not for me to know if the person sitting next to me is a worthy (i.e. employed) individual or not.

I can tell that you get caught up in measuring people against yourself and deciding if they are worthy of having access to luxuries like food, shelter or transport. Let it go. And yes, it we (humanity) last long enough, everything will be free and no one will have to pay for anything, but people will work. They will 'work' at what fulfils them. As hard as it might be for you to imagine, most people given the means to find and perform work, do so.

H
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Old 02-12-2012, 12:22 AM
 
Location: Portland, Oregon
46,001 posts, read 35,048,869 times
Reputation: 7875
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Cactus Leaguer View Post
If you are seriously making the claim that Trimet (or mass transit in general) is not subsidized to a greater degree than roads or highways, I would like to see some facts to back it up. Everything I've read indicates that mass transit receives 20% or less of their funding from user fees, while roads receive at least 70% or more from user fees... and that doesn't even factor in the fact that gas and vehicle taxes are often diverted to other uses besides roads... factoring this in makes it (vehicle infrastructure) pretty much entirely self-funding.

Thanks in advance for any research you can link to that backs up your claim.
This is the statistics I am wondering about, do you have anything to back this up?
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Old 02-12-2012, 09:48 AM
 
Location: Nutmeg State
1,176 posts, read 2,554,645 times
Reputation: 639
Quote:
Originally Posted by EnricoV View Post
Just to clear up one point you made: Cars are not allowed to park themselves on public property any more than people are. It is illegal to leave a car parked on the street for more than 24 hours.
True that is what is legally on the books:
16.20.170 Storing Property on Street Prohibited.

But honestly is that remotely enforced anywhere but the downtown core? How often do you see a car parked for weeks on the street at one particular place? I can think of at least a dozen just in my 4 mile ride to work. That's giving an advantage (or subsidy) to one particular mode of transport not granted to other modes.

Exactly, society has agreed that cars get preferential treatment for some aspects of their operation. I think it's time that society reevaluate that, and maybe look to some better solutions, than one million singular people sitting in traffic in finite-fuel burning, pollution emitting machines every single day.

Brad Pitt (of all people) had a great quote on the Daily show a week or two ago (and I'm paraphrasing I'm sure):
If mankind were to try to invent a form of transportation today (2012), does anyone really believe we would come up with the automobile? This is a vehicle that runs on a limited-resource fuel, is expensive, gets your stuck in traffic, and pollutes the planet. I think we can do better, and we were inventing transportation today, we would do better."

It was a really profound statement, and I was really impressed that it came from him, I can't even remember what topic lead into it.
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Old 02-12-2012, 09:49 AM
 
Location: Nutmeg State
1,176 posts, read 2,554,645 times
Reputation: 639
Quote:
Originally Posted by urbanlife78 View Post
This is the statistics I am wondering about, do you have anything to back this up?
I think he said that he knew someone at TRIMET who said that.

Leisesturm, impressive post!
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