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Old 10-18-2013, 03:31 PM
 
577 posts, read 506,298 times
Reputation: 757

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Quote:
Originally Posted by hamellr View Post
We can't keep illegal drugs out of this country. What makes you think we could keep illegal guns out of the country?
You couldn't, but there would be a LOT less. I'm not even a US citizen but I can buy a gun here, and then sell it to whoever I want. I would have no idea how to buy an illegal gun. Even countries with very strict gun laws like the UK have illegal guns, but they're not all over the place like in the US. Also, they're generally old WWII/cold war-era weapons. The ones being used in the US are generally fancy new Glocks and such. No prizes for guessing where they come from.

Additionally, I don't buy the argument "well people can get them illegally so we might as well just make them all legal". If that's the case, let's start selling coke and heroin at Wal-mart and see what happens.

Last edited by jwuk45; 10-18-2013 at 03:47 PM..
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Old 10-18-2013, 04:12 PM
 
Location: Just outside of Portland
4,342 posts, read 5,443,742 times
Reputation: 4350
"Fancy" new Glocks?
You are showing ignorance.

IMHO, Glocks are the AK47s of the handgun world.
My father in law invited me to his local gun range one time because a Glock sales rep wanted to show off his line.
That gave me access to several Glock handguns and all the ammo I could shoot.
I shot them for hours and was not impressed.
A Glock is dependable, sure, but I would not call a Glock a "fancy" weapon.

Several of the guns I own are first rate examples of gunsmithing art and skill.
They are pieces of art.
Several of them are investment only. I will never shoot them.
They are far cry from the quality of a Glock.

Here is something to think about.
How many people in the US have been in the military and received small arms training?
How many people in the US were raised in and are living in non urban areas where a gun is considered a tool?
How many people in the US were raised with a hunting tradition, whether it was deer, fowl, etc?
How many people in the US actually know and understand what a gun is capable of, are trained in their use, and are not afraid of them?

My problem with your arguments is that you seem to assume that the only reason people buy guns is for some paranoid self protection reaction, and then the majority of them get stolen and end up out on the street.

There are millions of people that do not share your extreme, narrow, and over-emotional negative regard for guns.
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Old 10-18-2013, 04:18 PM
 
Location: Portland OR
1,823 posts, read 2,607,265 times
Reputation: 2197
[quote=jwuk45;31865328] I'm not even a US citizen [quote]


Not A US citizen yet you have a balls to advise others on what the consitution means and its relevance today. Clearly you are ignorant on the topic. Please go away and find some other issue to fill your day like an immigration reform rally or something.
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Old 10-18-2013, 05:54 PM
 
Location: Portland, OR
9,592 posts, read 9,356,886 times
Reputation: 9189
Who's showing ignorance? Since when does "not a U.S. citizen" equal illegal alien and/or 'without knowledge of or opinion on matters pertaining to U.S. citizens'? Using that kind of logic there should be no male OB/GYN's. I don't think it is a stretch to say that a Glock is 'fancy' compared to a .38 revolver. Someone asked about the issue of drinking and driving. At least there are laws on the books about it. Get caught driving drunk in NYC and you lose your car forever. Even if you were not in an accident. Very few people think driving drunk is a good thing, not even those that do it! Is it any wonder that the pro-gun side has to resort to silly semantics arguments or make uncalled for slurs against peoples origins when they have so little to work with. Finally... I really have heard enough about the freaking 2nd Amendment. The Constitution empowers Americans to do a lot of things besides own guns. It is your Constitutional right to make up to 200 gallons of beer and wine for your own consumption. Does anyone active in this thread homebrew? I have at least researched it. But that isn't my point. My point is that the Constitution empowers Americans to own firearms. It is not compulsory! Some of you seem to believe it is some kind of national mandate.

H
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Old 10-19-2013, 02:40 PM
 
Location: Myrtle Creek, Oregon
10,856 posts, read 11,292,714 times
Reputation: 16817
Quote:
Originally Posted by pdxMIKEpdx View Post
"Fancy" new Glocks?
You are showing ignorance.

IMHO, Glocks are the AK47s of the handgun world.
My father in law invited me to his local gun range one time because a Glock sales rep wanted to show off his line.
That gave me access to several Glock handguns and all the ammo I could shoot.
I shot them for hours and was not impressed.
A Glock is dependable, sure, but I would not call a Glock a "fancy" weapon.

Several of the guns I own are first rate examples of gunsmithing art and skill.
They are pieces of art.
Several of them are investment only. I will never shoot them.
They are far cry from the quality of a Glock.

Here is something to think about.
How many people in the US have been in the military and received small arms training?
How many people in the US were raised in and are living in non urban areas where a gun is considered a tool?
How many people in the US were raised with a hunting tradition, whether it was deer, fowl, etc?
How many people in the US actually know and understand what a gun is capable of, are trained in their use, and are not afraid of them?

My problem with your arguments is that you seem to assume that the only reason people buy guns is for some paranoid self protection reaction, and then the majority of them get stolen and end up out on the street.

There are millions of people that do not share your extreme, narrow, and over-emotional negative regard for guns.
I agree about Glocks. The favorite pistol I ever shot was a Beretta M9. I may own one someday. However, my standby handgun is a stainless steel .357 revolver that will survive days of rain and being dragged through underbrush. I kept running across crippled deer that some hunter had shot and then not tracked, while I was on a mushroom foray. Trust me, dispatching a crippled deer with a dull mushroom knife is no fun. The .357 makes it easier and more humane. I am one of those people who thinks of a gun as a tool, not a weapon. I have a concealed carry permit just for convenience, so I don't have to worry about driving or walking around with a revolver on my hip.

For home security I have three large dogs and an ankle biter. As the UPS guy says, "Nobody is ever going to sneak up on you." Yes, my guns live in a gun safe that is securely bolted to the house framing.

For recreation I shoot trap and sporting clays with a cute little Browning BPS in 28 gauge. I reload my own shells for half what a 12 gauge would cost. I also have a couple large bore rifles with Leupold scopes that are tuned to MOA accuracy, a Remington 870 express magnum which is my duck and goose hunting truck, an Ithaca 37 for upland birds, a Browning Citori when 28 gauge just won't do, a couple .22 rifles, a .22 revolver (great for varmints), and a black powder cap and ball Civil War replica. An older, less secure but lockable, gun cabinet has been repurposed for ammunition storage, along with several surplus ammo cases that are "grab and go" for trips to the range.

I'm sure the urban newspapers would call it "an arsenal" and deplore me all over, but to me the guns are just a good selection of tools. I shoot them all often enough to be reasonably proficient and keep them oiled. When my nephew turned 18 I gave him a deer rifle, a shotgun and a .22 rifle that I inherited from my father (his grandfather), along with about a week of gun safety training.

I'm not a gun nut. It does concern me that there are so many illegal guns out there in the hands of criminals. It's one reason I spent over a thousand dollars on a gun safe. However, I'm not concerned about Oregon CCP owners, since they have been vetted by a FBI background check and have had to take several hours of classroom and firing range training in safe and responsible gun ownership. Since Oregon is a "must issue" state, I would support everyone being required to present a CCP to purchase a handgun. HIPAA privacy laws or not (HIPAA Compliance: Regulations, Standards, Certification, Training for 2014), I also think all people diagnosed as mentally ill should be in the FBI database, though I also think they should have a means of appealing their status.

Finally, I am an active member of the Roseburg Rod and Gun Club. Welcome to the Roseburg Rod & Gun Club Despite dozens of active members using firearms on the premises every day, NO ONE has ever been injured by a firearm beyond the occasional case of "M-1 thumb" or skinned knuckles from an incautious grip on a pistol. The shooting community enforces strict safety rules until they become completely automatic, and new shooters are coached until they achieve that proficiency.
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Old 10-20-2013, 07:44 PM
 
577 posts, read 506,298 times
Reputation: 757
[quote=ccjarider;31865900][quote=jwuk45;31865328] I'm not even a US citizen
Quote:


Not A US citizen yet you have a balls to advise others on what the consitution means and its relevance today. Clearly you are ignorant on the topic. Please go away and find some other issue to fill your day like an immigration reform rally or something.
I've lived in the US for ten years. I am a legal resident. I pay my taxes like everyone else. I'm not a criminal. I have never claimed any benefits, and I have put tens of thousands of dollars worth of foreign money into the US economy. I have every right to talk about things which affect me and those around me. I just find it ridiculous that people cling to text from hundreds of years ago only when it suits them (where were all the Tea Party types when Occupy protesters were being maced? It does say in the constitution that people have freedom of assembly. If people were really that concerned about enforcing the constitution, they'd be up in arms about more than just gun ownership.) When the 2nd amendment was written, semi-automatic weapons didn't exist, and I'm sure no-one imagined that the country would become flooded with guns of all shapes and sizes 150+ years later. This needs to be taken into consideration, especially when you look at how polarized American society is, and how immense the rich/poor divide is.

You might also want to look at this

High gun ownership makes countries less safe, US study finds | World news | theguardian.com

If you feel safer with a gun, great. Just be aware that you're probably making yourself (and others) less safe. (that's not directed at anyone here, but rather gun owners - legal or otherwise - in general)

Last edited by jwuk45; 10-20-2013 at 08:15 PM..
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Old 11-07-2013, 12:25 PM
 
13 posts, read 15,156 times
Reputation: 19
New here, oddly posting on this thread for my 1st post...

Might have an opportunity via the wife's work to move to Portland area.

We are both gun owners and I have never got a sense of what the area is like as far as how friendly it is towards folks like us. We are currently in NV. Reno area to be more specific.

I am a bit saddened to read a lot that is posted here. I knew OR is a blue state, mostly the congested areas pushing the state into the blue. As last I checked the rest of the state was red.

I guess a lot of those who live in congested areas just don't get it. The are almost willing to subject themselves to criminals and violent folks. Thinking their community will hold fast because a sense of security exists in numbers???

May be the way I was raised. However, it simply does not make sense to me. If evil exists, and that evil has means of using the best tool for the job. Why would anyone not want the same tool to prevent evil.

I get the idea of the fairyland tail of the Utopian society that the blue folks think America can some day become. However even with all of our technology and all the crap we have created in the last 200 short years in human history, has not changed humans.

We are violent. Nothing can change this. It is natural to be violent.

The only way any of the blue logic can hold is if all guns were taken away from all humans. Then the next violent object, and the next, and the next. This will simply never happen.

Even the red's logic is not sound. Yes it makes more logical sense to try and go after human behavior vs the tool. However even we know we can never change human behavior.

All saidand done, if we do end up getting the opportunity to move up north. I hope that I can find an area that is more friendly to the idea of self preservation.

In ending I will say this, as much as the congested population does not like guns and has a large melting pot of religious beliefs. The moment evil presents itself I imagined you will be praying to god and wishing you had a gun.
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Old 11-07-2013, 03:46 PM
 
Location: Just outside of Portland
4,342 posts, read 5,443,742 times
Reputation: 4350
My way of dealing with the gun arguments here in the Portland area is simple.

Don't ask, don't tell. I just don't talk about it.

As long as I am legal, it's nobodies business but mine.
I am sure that there are plenty of folks here that share the same views, but you will never hear about or from them.
It's simply too much of a hot potato around here.

Also, a lot of people don't realize that the liberal Portland and the Willamette Valley don't speak for all of Oregon.

Last edited by pdxMIKEpdx; 11-07-2013 at 04:51 PM..
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Old 11-07-2013, 05:10 PM
 
Location: O.C.
2,821 posts, read 2,591,509 times
Reputation: 2070
Quote:
Originally Posted by pdxMIKEpdx View Post

IMHO, Glocks are the AK47s of the handgun world.

Several of the guns I own are first rate examples of gunsmithing art and skill.
They are pieces of art.
Thats right buddy. You can throw an AK and a Glock in a muddy river, fish it out and run it over, go bury it in dirt for hours then pull it out and they will still go bang every time. I'd like to see your "pieces of art" do that
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Old 11-07-2013, 05:55 PM
 
Location: Chicago
319 posts, read 477,627 times
Reputation: 400
Quote:
Originally Posted by reno1911 View Post
New here, oddly posting on this thread for my 1st post...

Might have an opportunity via the wife's work to move to Portland area.

We are both gun owners and I have never got a sense of what the area is like as far as how friendly it is towards folks like us. We are currently in NV. Reno area to be more specific.

I am a bit saddened to read a lot that is posted here. I knew OR is a blue state, mostly the congested areas pushing the state into the blue. As last I checked the rest of the state was red.

I guess a lot of those who live in congested areas just don't get it. The are almost willing to subject themselves to criminals and violent folks. Thinking their community will hold fast because a sense of security exists in numbers???

May be the way I was raised. However, it simply does not make sense to me. If evil exists, and that evil has means of using the best tool for the job. Why would anyone not want the same tool to prevent evil.

I get the idea of the fairyland tail of the Utopian society that the blue folks think America can some day become. However even with all of our technology and all the crap we have created in the last 200 short years in human history, has not changed humans.

We are violent. Nothing can change this. It is natural to be violent.

The only way any of the blue logic can hold is if all guns were taken away from all humans. Then the next violent object, and the next, and the next. This will simply never happen.

Even the red's logic is not sound. Yes it makes more logical sense to try and go after human behavior vs the tool. However even we know we can never change human behavior.

All saidand done, if we do end up getting the opportunity to move up north. I hope that I can find an area that is more friendly to the idea of self preservation.

In ending I will say this, as much as the congested population does not like guns and has a large melting pot of religious beliefs. The moment evil presents itself I imagined you will be praying to god and wishing you had a gun.
They did it successfully in Australia... First of a three part series, that is absolutely hysterical. Especially at 4:05 or so...


The Daily Show: John Oliver Investigates Gun Control in Australia - Part 1 - YouTube

I think the framers of the constitution would consider the right to bear arms, was to bear an arm that wasn't something that could be semi-automatic, could they have imagined an AK-47? Could they have envision generations of young people desensitized to violence through video games and movies? This was a different country in 1776, and quite a bit more of a wild landscape.

Not only was the country young, but our leaders weren't complete morons, unable to enact legislation due to special interest groups:

"Why should we subsidize intellectual curiosity?"

-Ronald Reagan, campaign speech, 1980

"There is nothing which can better deserve our patronage that the promotion of science and literature. Knowledge is in every country the surest basis of public happiness."

-George Washington, address to Congress, January 8, 1790

(Favorite page in Carl Sagan's The Demon Haunted World: Science as a Candle in the Dark)

I realize that the pro-gun side of the issue has a point, but I think they are the ones on the fairy-tale side of the logic and reason. Due to a variety of factors, which I'm happy to list if asked, Americans in general are just too irresponsible and/or crazy to have easy access to guns.

If we don't do the smart thing, like Australia did, I'm for extensive background checks and limitations on how many crazy people should own guns.

While pro-gun people can say "I'm safe, I'm safe, I shoot responsibly" there are 5 that don't for every one of you. Therein lies the problem.

Yes, bad apples are ruining it. Want that to end? Vote for higher taxes to keep mental institutions open and fully staffed and higher taxes to pay for specially trained violence-hunter school psychologists.

Last time I went to the DMV I had to re-take the written drivers test. I sat down, finished with like a 95% or better score in about 5 minutes. Everyone who was there when I sat down was still working. One guy failed with almost 80% of his answers crossed out in red by the test administrator. These people shouldn't be driving, ever, let alone possessing a firearm. Let me rephrase - Just cause you believe you are either qualified or responsible enough to own a firearm. 95% of the rest of people are likely not.

And why do we bother talking about this? Nothings going to change as long as America is the world's arms dealer. Can't cut into those profits...
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